Hurrah for barnsleymitches son and for Mrs barnsleymitches chest.
Both very splendid things whether divinely ordained or not.

And his fish supper.

While that may be true, why is ‘rationality’ necessary when it comes to this subject?

Because the period when religion was at the height of it’s power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.

Getting my days mixed up there nealglover! Could be the rapture, or (much more likely) the thought of BOOZE and the wifes bazoomers!

Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….

I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.

To deny myself that, would have to be irrational, would it

Self reports are not actually facts

Read up on the placebo affect where we can prove people being happy and recovering when being treated with nothing- its not real what is happening but it is still happening.

we can prove humans delude themselves though we may not be able to prove it in your case
You being happy does not prove God exists I am happy and I dont have faith

Listen, while we’re wasting time with all things theological (though I have enjoyed tj’s posts), there’s the making’s of a lynchmob over on the bike forum – get me my pitchfork boys, I’ve a mind to join in!

Ta Barneslymitch. I have enjoyed debating with you in the past. Humour and honesty go a long way

Because the period when religion was at the height of it’s power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.

I disagree – The Church surpressed free thinking using its power of indoctrination, with religion acting as the veil behind which it was disguised.

Either way – I’m trying to say one is rational if they have reasons for their beliefs, no matter the source. Rationality is not the right term for us to be discussing.

It’s interesting that the placebo effect has been cited – it is clear that one is capable of feeling better with no real medicine – if the whole point was to feel better (as Ro5ey has), why does it matter?

Humour and honesty go a long way

malevolence and conniving go further 😛

…although he’d probably return on a Brompton, IMO.

I’m a devout atheist, but I’m also a sucker for old country churches & banging out hymns (as an ex-choir boy, My song is love unknown still reduces me to jelly). Within reason, I don’t consider the beliefs of others’ to be my busy-ness, with two exceptions:

1. Creationists targeting education.
2. Politicos trumpeting about shared values.

Otherwise, carry on.

if the whole point was to feel better (as Ro5ey has), why does it matter?

I am pretty sure that believers believe and think it is real rather than just think that they feel better so it does not matter whether it is real or not.

Obviously whether there is a god or not is a crucial issue in this debate

It matters becaus eself reports are a rubbish source of actuial information as we delud eourselves…have you not read a what tyre thread or people arguing on here about how they could have rideen x if they were on y bike [ damn I did that myself last night when in reality I was just too scared to ride it.

I am pretty sure that believers believe and think it is real rather than just think that they feel better so it does not matter whether it is real or not.

Obviously whether there is a god or not is a crucial issue in this debate

It matters becaus eself reports are a rubbish source of actuial information as we delud eourselves…have you not read a what tyre thread or people arguing on here about how they could have rideen x if they were on y bike [ damn I did that myself last night when in reality I was just too scared to ride it.

Yeah, I know – the worlds within our heads are very subjective. As such, what is the value of trying to come to terms with absolutes such as the existence of God?

While self reports are very bad for finding cold, hard facts, they’re a very good indication of applicability to things going on in your own head, which includes your beliefs.

If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.

Cougar … Sorry fella… I’ve not even explained it to friends and family… not about to spill my guts on interweb.

Not that there’s much too spill…. It’s just a wonderful tonic to modern life… giving me far far more fulfillment than shinny new bike parts I’ve bought or Big TVs or going on pouncy holiday… etc etc)

Edit … actually the pouncy holidays bit is a lie…. you’ll be hard pressed to beat the maldives…. Heaven on earth maybe ??

If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.

as had been said, personal belief and faith are all fine and lovely, generally meddling in and occasionally ****ing up non-believers lives is not.

Cougar … Sorry fella… I’ve not even explained it to friends and family… not about to spill my guts on interweb.

I was meaning more broadly than that. Is it the sense of community, or a belief in a god reassures you, that sort of thing.

But, no worries.

Sorry Junky been out;

Did you mention your beliefs in your application?

No wasn’t asked, bog standard Tayside council application form with the usual bit about not discriminating against anybody on grounds of sexual orentation, race or disability, no mention of religion anywhere, just the same stuff you had about the example you used in the school ethos statement.

Since it seems to matter to you; At that school there were,that I knew of, two gay members of staff. As you are aware,teachers hide that in ANY school. As for practising Catholics, no idea. There were six staff in my dept and only one didn’t come to the pub on Friday. I would say less than 30%.

Now your turn; Why would you apply for a job in a CoE school?

If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.

yes if people believe in something that is not true and then preach it to others, force us to learn it in school, have people to vote in parliament from this religion .and you just dont have a problem with this?

TBH they can believe whatever they want as long as they leave mne alone.
they dont

What is more we had 600 years + of oppression and ignorance from the CHurch and to openly say something counter to church doctrine was punishable by prison and worse until really quite recently.

Now this same group , who are thankfully on the backfoot, go on about tolerance and how theirs is a message of love.

there’s the making’s of a lynchmob over on the bike forum

Visions of everyone’s heads shooting up, looking around and all running off to the other end of the playground to see what the noise is all about.

I think its more about self discovery… and a belief in god is reassuring… but I’m not reassured by a “sky wizard”.

If you’d asked me 18months ago I would have firmly been in the… God? Sky Wizard you mean, camp….No longer.

Yes, community comes into it also.

There were two adults and two very young children outside Surbiton rail station last night, handing out small Eostre eggs and wishing everybody “Happy Easter”.

As I approached, I noticed that in the baskets holding the eggs, there also crouched pamphlets emblazoned with the crucifix so the actual agenda became obvious.

As I passed , I remarked “It doesn’t exist, it’s a superstition”.

The older xtian remarked, with a smug tone, “fine”.

Stopping and turning, looking pointedly at the accompanying infants, I said “and the indoctrination of children into religious dogma is a form of child abuse. Not only are you deluded, you’re peddling something that is actually evil”.

There was no reply….

That’s what I was hoping would happen wwaswas, but you cant distract this lot when they’re on one. 🙂

Can someone give me a precis of this thread so that I can unleash my mighty wisdom upon thee.

TSY – “TJ argues”

😉

galileo? wait a minute tho, who was it authorized the publication of the dialogue concerning the two chief world systems. oh aye, that would be the pope. and wouldn’t galileo’s defense of heliocentrism as not anti-scriptural be based on…the augustinian position?

to posit that there’s a body called ‘the church’ that actively suppressed ‘free thought’ (whatever that may be) is not only disingenuous but rewrites the work and achievements of all those great pre-enlightenment types and reduces them to a binary position that allows no insight into their fascinating world views let alone the influences that shaped them.

but you cant distract this lot when they’re on one.

I think your wife’s jumper is largely to blame, tbh.

swiss01 – Member
galileo? wait a minute tho, who was it authorized the publication of the dialogue concerning the two chief world systems. oh aye, that would be the pope. and wouldn’t galileo’s defense of heliocentrism as not anti-scriptural be based on…the augustinian position?

to posit that there’s a body called ‘the church’ that actively suppressed ‘free thought’ (whatever that may be) is not only disingenuous but rewrites the work and achievements of all those great pre-enlightenment types and reduces them to a binary position that allows no insight into their fascinating world views let alone the influences that shaped them.

I used to write like that when I was going English GCSE 🙂

TSY – “TJ argues”

Ahhh… I thought as much. Blessed are thee who attempt to reason with TJ. For he has a head of stone and the tenacity of the tide. As man struggles to refute TJ’s logic he shall find inner peace and fulfillment when the light of futility shines upon him.

swiss01 – I was tempted to go down that line as well as indeed it was the church that encouraged Galileo to write and publish the book. You could also argue that he was silenced more for writing the book in a way that implied if you didn’t take his viewpoint you were an idiot. The problem was at around the same time the church came out with the ‘Index Librorum Prohibitorum’ which probably was a bit restrictive 🙁

Mr Woppit

Nice.

Hope it brought some happiness to your life.

And Lo, the mitch of the barnsleys saw the wangers, and the wangers were good…

As man struggles to refute TJ’s logic he shall find inner peace and fulfillment when the light of futility shines upon him

or the banhammer – whichever comes first

Can someone give me a precis of this thread so that I can unleash my mighty wisdom upon thee.

Is there a sufficiently small measure of time for that ?.

Somehow, nano second seems longer than a life time, all of a sudden.
😉

Heres my molecule of religious wisdom for you lot to either ignore or flame me into the arms of hades.

Religion, for me, carries one message.

” Just be nice to one another “.

If only, eh ?.

+1 for clubber. sadly, i do actually speak like this….

when the light of futility shines upon him.

Is that before or after you’ve completed your 15th set of kettle bell, wall climb, back stroke ?.

for writing the book in a way that implied if you didn’t take his viewpoint you were an idiot

TJ is Galileo and I claim my £5 😉

It’s a strange world when the rationalist seems less reasonable than the pro-god crowd 😀

the rationalist seems less reasonable than the pro-god crowd

People often judge the messenger and not the message.

Absolutely but it’s an interesting contrast here.

The 11th commandment Solo – though shalt not do backstroke.

For backstroke is the work of the devil, though should be free(style) like the dove of peace, or (front)crawl to your lord and master, or Breast-stroke like the Mitch of the Barnsley. For these are the paths of the righteous and the beloved.

Cheers Leffe I was not previously aware of thhat bit of meddling

While governments and church encouraged printing in many ways, which allowed the dissemination of Bibles and government information,

Well yes they would wouldn’t they

works of dissent and criticism could also circulate rapidly.

ooooh they wouldn’t like that

As a consequence, governments established controls over printers across Europe

Ah I see, well yeah perfectly valid bit of censorship that.

🙂

People often judge the messenger and not the message.

and to be fair it was only the one rationalist