Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm quite polarizing isn’t it.

and on a sobering not shit keeps happening, violence continues.

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/men-of-australia-it-s-time-to-pick-your-side-20190117-p50rz7.html

You men want to stop being lumped in with all the “bad apples”? Consider yourselves lucky that this is all you have to deal with. Women just want to get home safely, and to not become another statistic in the much more prevalent danger posed to us by the men we live with, sleep with and sit across the table from once we get there.

Think about that the next time you decide to whine that “it’s a really scary time to be a man”.

…

Men, you need to ask yourselves which side of that line you want to be on. Do you want to be one of the bricks in the wall that adds to the foundation of sexism and misogyny? That helps create the structure to which the worst of men can ascend to the most frightening of levels? Or do you want to be part of the team that’s tearing it down?

It’s your choice. Pick your side.

Somewhere in Australia right now, there’s a woman reading this news who’s just like Aiia Masarwe, like Eurydice Dixon, Tracey Connolly, Jill Meagher, Lynette Daley, Vicki Cleary, Anita Cobby and all the other countless women who came before her. We don’t know her name yet. But we will.

Pick. Your. Side.

@mikewsmith good post, but very slanted. This line of discussion for me is always a problem, it seems to only talk about the end result, which is brutal and insidious. but there is never a discussion on what shapes men to become like this. Maybe because that discussion would mean a closer look at how young children are treated and parented and the long term effects that the negative experiences have on them. And those issues aren’t restricted to one gender, we are only just starting to talk about the effects of children being weaponised in custody disputes, the effects of parental alienation and the mimicking of learned behaviour from one or both of the parents.

I think the constant gendering of the discussion gives rise to more fighting than movement towards decent and thought-provoking debate and prevents any meaningful and practical prevention suggestions. It’s a shame because kids are being infected daily with the most toxic slow-release poison and starting on a path that leads to misery and worse, the loss of life.

@mikeS Try to gaslight all you want about a rape culture. This is exactly the sort of ridiculous guilt by association (being male) nonsense that is wrong with the ad.

I’ve witnessed what are deemed traits of ‘toxic masculinity’ in many a female soldier. We have had same-sex DV cases to deal with and same-sex sexual offences. It’s why I don’t buy the gendered discussion, it should just be a discussion on toxic behaviours, how they start and what to do to try and prevent them.

Tragic incident, terrible article.

Pick. Your. Side.

Side. Spilts. In. Two.

Pick. Your. Side.

Etc.

I think the saddest part of all this nonsense is that it shows up the majority of men, on both sides, as being unable to progress beyond playground fighting and name calling.

Pretty much why I gave up posting on this thread. Too many folk unable to empathise and try to understand how other folk might see things.

You men want to stop being lumped in with all the “bad apples”? Consider yourselves lucky that this is all you have to deal with. Women just want to get home safely, and to not become another statistic in the much more prevalent danger posed to us by the men we live with, sleep with and sit across the table from once we get there.
Think about that the next time you decide to whine that “it’s a really scary time to be a man”.

Dude, we get that it can be **** scary to walk home at night. Yes it’s other men that are the cause of 99 percent of the violence, but it’s also usually us guys who get our heads kicked in on a night out for no good reason or stabbed if we’re really unlucky. There are plenty of place that I walk home at night thinking – I don’t like this.

Good men, the majority of us – hate violent arseholes as well.

Being told to “pick your side” is no different from the Bush era “you’re either with us or against us” – it allows no room for moderate discussion – and potentially drowns out valuable input from men on how to deal with societal violence.

There are sensible ways to reduce domestic violence and murders:

1) Increase mental healthcare funding, increase it’s visibility and ease of access.

2) Improve social nets for those suffering from DV – make access to temp housing easier to get.

3) Increase police funding so they have the time and resources to investigate DV properly.

4) Better fund school education in regards to DV

The only thing you can do about sociopaths that kill random women is

1) Increase police presence

2) Give women smart firearms or tazers that can only be triggered by their hands. Concealed carry states have lower rates of stranger rape.

3) Maybe reduce inequality. I’ve heard that well run countries with plenty of meaningful jobs have less issues with murder.

4) Potential identify headcases in the school system – using a system like PREVENT.

You aren’t going to help the poor lady in your link – by trying to guilt trip a sociopath.

Rene59..ever heard of ‘white privilege’?

I suggest you do some research on that and especially ‘male white privilege’ to see some of the reasons for why others might feel they have an issue with it.

I’m going to guess you are a white male too judging by your comments.

This post above is why I facepalm

I think one of the messages in the ad is “don’t stand and watch, do something, say something”. I live in a pretty peaceful place but a while back was on a bus where a woman was being hassled by three yoofs. I said nothing but went and stood next to the woman. I’m not big, less than average build but my presence was enough for them to lose interest. There’s video on the busses now.

Does it make you feel uncomfortable @RM attack?

…And male white priviledge is trotted out. This is as predictable as an Andy Mcnab storyline.

Good men, the majority of us – hate violent arseholes as well.

Point utterly totally missed.

@moose – ever wondered why it’s repeatedly trotted out?

I like the use of Andy McNab too – own goal from where I see it.

You aren’t going to help the poor lady in your link – by trying to guilt trip a sociopath.

Why do you keep mentioning Sociopaths?

@mikeS Try to gaslight all you want about a rape culture. This is exactly the sort of ridiculous guilt by association (being male) nonsense that is wrong with the ad.

Not trying to manipulate anybody, it’s another valid point of view in response to another apparently random attack and the culture that enables that.

Dude, we get that it can be **** scary to walk home at night. Yes it’s other men that are the cause of 99 percent of the violence, but it’s also usually us guys who get our heads kicked in on a night out for no good reason or stabbed if we’re really unlucky. There are plenty of place that I walk home at night thinking – I don’t like this.

Really you go out with a random risk of being stabbed or beaten up? Where is that? How random are these attacks? Do they normally happen to people once they are alone?

There are sensible ways to reduce domestic violence and murders:

1) Increase mental healthcare funding, increase it’s visibility and ease of access.

2) Improve social nets for those suffering from DV – make access to temp housing easier to get.

3) Increase police funding so they have the time and resources to investigate DV properly.

4) Better fund school education in regards to DV

Or some of the ways in the article by tacking the inherent sexism and attitudes from the start.

…And male white priviledge is trotted out. This is as predictable as an Andy Mcnab storyline.

Yeah, obviously if you don’t think it exists then it’s going to be hard for you to get it (and before the usual crap appears we could call it dominant ethnic/sex group privileged in the UK it’s White Male). As the above example I’ve spoken to plenty of women who see the same walk home in a completely different light, don’t feel safe in taxi’s etc. They describe a situations where most people here would be 100% comfortable as being really uncomfortable based on the simple attitude of the men around them and the fact that very few will challenge that behaviour.

I am getting some reassurance from the fact that the vulnerable group of blokes who have been groomed by JPW, Jordan Peterson and their ilk, those aggressively defensive young boys, those heartbroken under-acheivers, have been weighed and measured by the number crunchers and have been found to be worthless.
That they are of no significant financial consequence to the marketing department suggests to me that this rebellious little temper tantrum is smaller than thought and the current fad for defending toxic masculinity as a cornerstone of contrarianism has run it’s course..

Male privilege:

I worked for a while in an office with inadequate parking. One female colleague complained about it, so I suggested she park in the lane behind the car park as I did. ‘I can’t park there,’ she said,’it’s not lit’.

My male privilege is the fact that I get to park in a dark lane without fear of attack, and she doesn’t.

And it’s not like getting randomly attacked on a night out. You can avoid that by not going on nights out, or leaving early, or not going to busy town centres. You have to put yourself in that situation. Women face the threat of sexual assault or threatening behaviour all the time. When they are at work, when they are shopping, when they are out for a run – everywhere, every day. That’s what #metoo was all about.

It’s a real issue, and as someone unaffected by it you DO NOT get to simply dismiss it. You are being told there’s a problem, but you are dismissing those telling you about it because you’ve not experienced it yourself.

This gendered argument has been raging for a while and still no headway made? Why is that? Could it be because the reasonable middle are being drowned out in the noise of the screaming?

I’m all for making the world a safer place for everyone, but leave the buzzword bingo at the door because it distracts from an open and honest debate.

My question is always the same, irrespective of gender, why is it that there is an overwhelming number of people who seem hell bent on inflicting serious physical, psychological and emotional harm to one another?

Where are these thought processes and behaviours being learned and what the **** are we going to do about it?

Excusing one side of the population from any scruntiy or responsibility in this equation. The JP worshippers and MRA’s can go **** themselves along with the rest of the buzzword bullshit bingo enthusiasts.

MOLGRIPS, I’m more than aware of the threat to women, I’ve had to deal with the aftermath of serious issues and try and help reintegrate a couple of female soldiers into work afterwards. Only one stayed, the other was too affected. Which is sad because she was a decent human and rising star. So I’m well aware of the human cost in this.

Like I said, I’m not interested in discussing the semantics of gendered arguments, I’ll happily engage with anyone about their issues and how I can help, but labelling everything only creates division and clouds objective thinking. And in my soon to end line of work, there’s no traction in dividing people, it has disastrous consequences.

lame advert. Bring back the catsuits. There’s no harm in it and even the models enjoy the living.

Shame Gillette used to and probably still do test on animals. Wilkinson do not.

@molegrips

From ONS website:

Men were more likely to be victims of CSEW violent crime than women (2.1% of males compared with 1.3% of females1, Figure 9). This was true for all types of violence, with the exception of acquaintance violence which showed no significant difference and domestic violence which showed the reverse trend (0.4% of females were victims compared to 0.2% of males). The year ending March 2017 CSEW showed that:

stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.3% compared with 0.4%)

How do you reconcile you being over 3 times more likely a victim of stranger violence with your parking male privilidge?

So, anybody bought a Gillette razor yet? Has it changed you? Do you now partake of mahoosive side by side barbecue offs and stroke your smooth face whilst pulling the smuggest possible expression in the mirror? Are you more handsome than when you used your Bic, Harry’s or Wilkinson Sword? If you were a chauvinistic dickhead are you now reformed? If you were already a normal, decent person what’s happened?

I think this campaign has probably achieved the aim Gillette set out for it.

over 3 times more likely a victim of stranger violence

This.

How do you reconcile you being over 3 times more likely a victim of stranger violence with your parking male privilidge?

How do you reconcile statistics detailing that women having a greater fear of violent crime than men, given that Molegrips mentioned fear and threat rather than actual attack

How do you reconcile statistics detailing that women having a greater fear of violent crime than men, given that Molegrips mentioned fear and threat rather than actual attack

Not sure we need to. We can’t legislate for how scared any of us are of anything.

Which gender would you claim has the appropriate level of fear of violence? Are you saying men “privileged” by accurately estimating the risk we face or are men “privileged” by under estimating the risk we face and therefore being happier in spite of the higher risk we endure? If the latter then aren’t men put in danger by our incorrect risk assessment, in which case women have the privilege. If the former are you saying that women are less able to estimate risk than men?

Not sure we need to. We can’t legislate for how scared any of us are of anything

So a society where women aren’t subject to regular sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, a media which is obsessed with sexualisation, etc would not decrease feelings of vulnerability

Maybe the consistent hyperbole and efforts to divide everyone accounts for the statistics that women fear men all day everyday. Air pollution kills more women than men. I’ll bet if the threat of air pollution received as much coverage then the statistics would show that.

If tinribz is going to use out of context claims about violence to suggest that somehow men shouldn’t need to examine their behaviours and attitudes, or that women’s perception of violence is somehow skewed, I’m going to throw in this one about sexual assault. Shall we move on?

The CSEW estimated that 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 3.4 million female victims and 631,000 male victims.

So a society where women aren’t subject to regular sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, a media which is obsessed with sexualisation, etc would not decrease feelings of vulnerability

LOL so Women are not watching this media and reading these magazines etc?

If they weren’t then people would be asking what they needed to do, to get them on board.

Slightly mawkish ad campaign suggest men should be a bit less arseholey.

Arseholes of the world unite in support of their right to carry on being arseholes.

But if this thread has taught me anything it’s that privilege is really hard to spell

I’m conflicted. Third post in I mentioned I felt the ad meant well.
Tonight I intend to watch the first episode of season 3 of The Grand Tour with Mr Clarkson.

Yeah, I get it wrong all the time. I’ve made my phone as dumb as me so it corrects it when I spell correctly.

out of context

It wasn’t out of context. He was answering someone’s statement about the fear of parking a car in an alleyway:

Men were more likely to be victims of CSEW violent crime than women (2.1% of males compared with 1.3% of females1, Figure 9). This was true for all types of violence

You’re implying Sexual Assault is the only kind of assault that matters and therefore men are privileged. You could equally claim that being kicked in the ball sack is the only kind of assault that matters in which case women are privileged.

Numbers for violence of all kinds is the only reasonably way to determine if men have an alleyway parking privilege, and it seems we don’t.

Unless you want to defend Kilo’s ‘fear’ point, in which case maybe you can address my questions on that.

labelling everything only creates division and clouds objective thinking

No-one is being excused from anything. Anyone involved in this debate is constantly being accused of being offended by everything, so I don’t think you can accuse us of excusing people.

Labelling is important because it helps deal with behaviours that come from certain places. We are not islands, we are affected by our culture. And the point about sexual harassment is that it is often a *cultural* issue. We all learn from what’s going on around us, from when we are babies. So when we see men acting badly without consequence, we think it’s normal and we can excuse ourselves if we do it. This is what ‘boys will be boys’ means. Things like this advert are trying to act on a societal level – to prick the conscience that most people have to make them realise that it is not okay.

Individually, 50 years ago men were no more or less scumbags than they are today. But sexual abuse was far more commonplace because it was seen as the way people behave – normal gender dynamics.

stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.3% compared with 0.4%)

How many actual men have been a victim of stranger violence, rather than percentages? How many were victims completely out of the blue, for example a random passerby simply lamping them? (This does happen, it happened to someone I know) I bet very few. As opposed to 20% of ALL WOMEN being subject to sexual assault. Your statistics need a lot more information to be useful here.

What about violence involving disposable razors? What percentage are Gillette proglide related and were these incidents perpetrated against men or women? Is the Mach3 statistically a more violent razor than the Turbo Glide?

The whole thing is laughable from both sides. Knuckle draggers getting upset because they are being called out and people clapping because men need to change. The only ones that need to change are these two groups, the rest of us are just calmly carrying on as normal fully functioning adults.

The whole thing is laughable from both sides. Knuckle draggers getting upset because they are being called out and people clapping because men need to change. The only ones that need to change are these two groups, the rest of us are just calmly carrying on as normal fully functioning adults.

This.

As opposed to 20% of ALL WOMEN being subject to sexual assault

The vast majority included in this statistic is low level unwanted touching etc, the equivalent figure is 5% for men which is lower than I would have guessed.

The only ones that need to change are these two groups, the rest of us are just calmly carrying on as normal fully functioning adults.

Ignoring there is an issue and something needs to change.