sharkbait
Free Member

But the fire brigade don’t seem to be making much noise about boilers which generally get very hot and handle stuff that goes bang!

Boilers are designed around that, installed with that in mind and are also supposed to be inspected and serviced regularly, is probably the major difference. Whereas washing machines etc are pretty much ignored til they break, can be full of dust and suchlike, and are pretty much stuck under worktops or into utility rooms without the same level of thought. We had to get a qualified guy in to fit our boiler but I installed the dryer, using no skill or foresight at all.

Kind of like how chargers are disproportionately likely to start a fire- not because they’re always going on fire, but because when they do, they’re more likely to be on the floor under a tshirt or something.

Whilst I appreciate there are potential advantages in water usage, I still struggle to see how the extraction of raw materials, followed by the manufacture, transportation and ultimate disposal of the dishwasher makes for a more environmentally friendly alternative than good old fashioned washing up…

Whatsmore, how is the electric heating of water in the dishwasher magically much more efficient than a kettle?

I really don’t think people consider the environment in their choice of how to wash plates and cuttlery, its just something they say to justify their choice, or as an “interesting” 🥱 aside. Its just a chore some prefer to do one way, some another.

realising that it’d be expected when we come to sell.

Why not keep the old one so the unimaginitive idiot buyers can visualise it then “take it with you” (to the tip) as they are only going to want a new one to match whatever redecorating they plan on doing?

I know people will say doubling your risk from 0.0000x to 0.00002x, etc., but why double the risk if you don’t have to.

I wouldn’t listen to anyone who was that bad at maths TBH. I also wouldn’t trust anyone in my house, including me, to spot a fire quicker than a properly installed smoke or heat detector.

Whatsmore, how is the electric heating of water in the dishwasher magically much more efficient than a kettle?

It’s not, it’s the same method. The amount of water and energy used on the other hand…

I wouldn’t listen to anyone who was that bad at maths TBH.

LOL

I also wouldn’t trust anyone in my house, including me, to spot a fire quicker than a properly installed smoke or heat detector.

Maybe not. But that’s not the point – as the article clearly says, and as I helpfully pasted for you:

If a fire breaks out during the night, whatever the cause, the risk to life is always greater as it is very likely people will be asleep and have less time to react and escape,” an LFB spokesman says.

While only 11% of fires occurred in the five hours between midnight and 5am, these caused a fifth of all deaths in Great Britain in 2013-14.

So I’m not discussing with someone with that lack of comprehension either.

With this you’re starting to be a bit of a dick now. A huge part of what the fire service do is based around education and prevention. It’s not ‘some bloke who puts fires out’ pet peeve.

I meant no disrespect, I have no doubts that it’s a difficult and demanding job from top to bottom. I highly doubt that I could do it.

Rather, there is a difference in reporting between “there was a house fire because dishwasher” and “there was a dishwasher fire because ill-maintained drain / worn-out wiring loom / etc.”

Does the fire service get involved in forensics? I genuinely don’t know.

“Don’t be tempted leave the washing machine, tumble dryer or dishwasher running overnight or while you are out. <b>They are a fire risk because of their high wattage, friction and motors</b>.

Sure. But they are of equal fire risk regardless of your presence or absence.

That “bedtime checks” list also tells you not to charge your phone overnight. When do you charge yours?

So I’m not discussing with someone with that lack of comprehension either.

With all due respect, you’re normally a voice of reason but I think in this instance your phobia is colouring your judgement.

When I’m sat at my desk. Not overnight.

Maybe I’m paranoid (pedant point – being scared of fire isn’t a phobia; being scared of being burned alive is an entirely LOGICAL fear) but it takes no extra effort to do the things suggested.

Rather, there is a difference in reporting between “there was a house fire because dishwasher” and “there was a dishwasher fire because ill-maintained drain / worn-out wiring loom / etc.” Does the fire service get involved in forensics?

Yes; either directly or using forensic experts. They might go to the detail you consider relevant but I’d also consider how actionable knowing the actual fault and cause is. It’s more actionable to give the advice they have (don’t run them overnight, if in doubt get a specialist to service it, register it so you get recalls, etc.) than to give a truly accurate but more confusing piece of advice, e.g: don’t run it at night unless you’re fully on top of keeping the drain clean, have checked the wiring periodically, and are on top of the recall schedule.

But they are of equal fire risk regardless of your presence or absence.

That is the point. If it’s going to catch fire I’d rather be awake and ready to respond rather than woken in the night, confused and befuddled, trapped upstairs by the smoke spreading through the downstairs…… so don’t run them overnight.

I get the point maybe that running them while out avoids that, but also means that the fire won’t be discovered until considerably later with the risk of worse damage or total loss (plus the dog burning to death because the FS won’t go in to rescue pets at risk to their life)

With all due respect, you’re normally a voice of reason but I think in this instance your phobia is colouring your judgement.

That was intended as a tongue in cheek response to Squirrelking’s comment on my maths prowess, which hasn’t come across. I apologise. I really don’t care that much, you carry on as you are and I’ll do what I do –  it doesn’t actually affect me. I just don’t quite understand your logic; if you were arguing that 2x miniscule is still miniscule enough that the convenience outweighs the risk in your mind, then I’d still think you were wrong but up to you.

Arguing that there’s no extra risk by a fire starting while you’re asleep upstairs compared to awake and in the next room…… that makes no sense to me.

Maybe I’m paranoid (pedant point – being scared of fire isn’t a phobia; being scared of being burned alive is an entirely LOGICAL fear) but it takes no extra effort to do the things suggested.

being scared of being burned alive is an entirely logical fear for sure, but being scared of being burned alive because you’re in a house with a dishwasher is irrational. I’m scared of drowning but I don’t turn off the isolation valves on the bath before I go to bed.

Yes; either directly or using forensic experts.

Cool, I did not know that and I apologise. Have you got the findings from these analyses? I’d genuinely like to read them.

It’s more actionable to give the advice they have… than to give a truly accurate but more confusing piece of advice

Sure, because in the fire service’s top 12 tips to avert house fires, these same people are seemingly surprised to be learn that they should try not to fall asleep whilst smoking in bed.

If it’s going to catch fire I’d rather be awake and ready to respond rather than woken in the night,

As others have already said, if it’s going to catch fire then I’d rather have a functional alarm and extinguishers.

I just don’t quite understand your logic

Everything we do has an element of risk. Eating carries an inherent risk of choking; conclusion, we stop eating? Crossing the road you could be hit by a bus, do we just stop crossing roads or do we accept that the chance of bus death is offset by the benefit of getting a meatball marinara from Subway across the way? We can’t even just stay in bed and hide from it all because Deep Vein Thrombosis could kill you.

My logic is simply this. Is the lifestyle hit worth the saving on peace of mind (in your case almost certainly) and is the action you’re taking the best way of achieving that (I’d guess not)?

This is why I’m poking at your fire services reports, and you’ve not come back with anything because likely you don’t know any more than I do. If they look into why fires occur then, well, why do they happen? “Yes but appliance” doesn’t wash (so to speak), what went wrong here? Where is this data?

If tumble dryers are catching fire because the lint trap hasn’t been cleaned in a decade then the solution isn’t to sit there watching the thing for an hour just in case it bursts into flames, it’s to clean out the bloody lint trap occasionally (or y’know, to fit sensors that shut the thing down before that happens). No?

Again – when do you charge your phone?

Arguing that there’s no extra risk by a fire starting while you’re asleep upstairs compared to awake and in the next room…… that makes no sense to me.

Call me wild and crazy, but I’d rather not have a fire at all.

Don’t you have alarms? If we had a fire here, it’d wake the street.

Your post is too long to answer every point, but in summary, in practical terms we have to cross roads, we have to eat, we have to go out and can’t stay in bed all day. You can even argue we have to run the dishwasher, for the benefit it entails versus doing the washing up. But you don’t have to do it overnight when you’re asleep. That is the sole point I’m making.

No, I don’t have access to the forensic reports, I’m not in the FS. I’m just passing on what others have said, and what is said by ‘the experts’ from various safety and FS’s in the links provided. I did google, and there are summaries online, e.g

Dishwashers

Prior to the rise in popularity of dishwashers in the late 1970s, dropping a plate was the worst thing that could happen while doing the dishes. This past October, over half a million dishwashers sold between January 2013 and May 2015 were recalled because the power cords could overheat and catch fire. However, the most common causes of dishwasher fires are the infiltration of water, detergent or rinse-aid on the control circuit board(s), and the heating element overheating. Failure of the heating element, which frequently results in the ignition of the plastic tub, can be especially destructive.

Rise of the Machines: Appliance Fire and Flood Claims

Dishwashers. As previously mentioned, the major cause of fire from dishwashers is moisture contacting the conductors. The controller for most dishwashers is at the top of the door and moisture can reach this area if the interior of the door leaks. The plastic components that release the detergent or finishing agents on the interior of the door can become brittle over time and then crack and start to leak. When the door is opened to a horizontal position, the water inside the door can reach the controller at the top of the door and cause a fire.

Another fire cause is the wiring loom passing through the base of the door becoming stressed due to the door opening and closing over time and the insulation breaking down, resulting in a short circuit.

Dishwashers can also cause fires if a combustible material contacts the element during the drying cycle. Combustible materials such as plastic cups, paper plates or a towel accidentally left inside the machine can ignite.

https://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article8.html

As to

As others have already said, if it’s going to catch fire then I’d rather have a functional alarm and extinguishers.

It’s not an either or. Of course I’d also like them. But – to what end? They’d be more effective if you were awake and alert at the time you needed them, rather than suddenly woken by which time (mate’s anecdote) the smoke was already too dense to go downstairs and they had to batten down in an upstairs room and wait for ‘the blokes that put fires out’ to extract them through the window.

Another google, but you are talking about the differences of seconds. The dishwasher’s actually on next door as we speak – if it caught fire now I reckon I’d know sooner than the 1:30-2:00 for the smoke alarm to go off. Maybe I wouldn’t. I’m still better off by being awake.

https://www.scutumlondon.co.uk/help-advice/how-fast-does-a-fire-spread/

Again – when do you charge your phone?

Already answered, if you look back, but I’ll repost

When I’m sat at my desk. Not overnight.

But you don’t have to do it overnight when you’re asleep. That is the sole point I’m making.

Sure. But IMHO there’s vanishingly little reason not to.

Does it matter? Probably not in the grand scheme of things. The whole circle of risk management is that we all make decisions on a continual basis as to what risks are worth the rewards, be that crossing the road, reading a newspaper and risking a papercut, or solo ice-climbing during a blizzard.

You have a concern. I’d ask a) is that a realistic worry and b) assuming it is, is your mitigation the best course of action?

No, I don’t have access to the forensic reports, I’m not in the FS. I’m just passing on what others have said, and what is said by ‘the experts’ from various safety and FS’s in the links provided. I did google, and there are summaries online, e.g

Most of those scenarios can be avoided to varying degrees but sure. You’ve got a design failure, ill maintenance and user error. None of which will be of much comfort when your kitchen’s on fire, I hear you.

It’s not an either or. Of course I’d also like them. But – to what end?

To not obsess about highly unlikely scenarios and get on with sleeping at midnight rather than listening to next door’s dishwasher?

Already answered, if you look back, but I’ll repost

Apologies, I totally missed that.

So in the end it comes down to expert advice being that you shouldn’t run them overnight, which you are choosing to ignore. It’s not ‘my’ advice and it’s not particularly for me to defend the advice, I’m just passing that advice on. I’ve tried to answer your queries and in the end your answer is to rebut them and say it’s my problem, that it’s an obsession. I’ve only looked them up to answer your probing, which was a mistake. So – I’m just passing on the expert advice and saying why I follow it.

I’d ask a) is that a realistic worry and b) assuming it is, is your mitigation the best course of action?

a/ sufficient for the experts to offer advice on it; b/ it’s part of a package of measures, which also include smoke alarms, registering for recalls, and so on, as already said. It’s a low disruption measure, to just be organised to put it on earlier in the evening.

SUMMARY

Some appliances fail for whatever reason.

Some failures lead to fires.

If a fire happens overnight, you’re twice as likely to be killed as a result.

On that basis the expert advice is not to run appliances overnight if you don’t have to.

But go on, your choice.

So in the end it comes down to expert advice being that you shouldn’t run them overnight, which you are choosing to ignore.

I’d say it’s more a case of general advice given with the lowest common denominator in mind, see smoking in bed. The hazards are certainly worth considering and nobody is dismissing them out of hand however with decent mitigations in place the risk can be lowered (hazard vs risk).

The question we should be asking is whether the correct mitigations are in place.

How many people have a correctly installed fire door with intumescent strip between their kitchen or utility room and the rest of the house? Is that room properly fire sealed? Are there suitable protections on the electrical circuits? Are the appliances regularly cleaned and inspected?

I’d also question the effectiveness of a smoke alarm that takes up to 2 minutes to detect smoke!

How many people have a correctly installed fire door with intumescent strip between their kitchen or utility room and the rest of the house? Is that room properly fire sealed? Are there suitable protections on the electrical circuits? Are the appliances regularly cleaned and inspected?

Agreed, in the fire survey the SFB did while fitting our alarms* they winced because we have open plan downstairs – lounge kitchen and diner, into hallway and stairs – first door a kitchen fire would reach is the bedroom ones (so I made sure they are proper heavy fire resistant ones!). But, that’s the reality of many houses, and it’s not an either / or scenario, in fact because we / people don’t have ‘fire compartments’ in place is it not even more important that you minimise all other risks particularly when they have little consequence.

* PSA – ask your local FB, they’re more than happy to come and give advice, an ounce of prevention, etc…..and some of the stuff they said really was useful and actionable.

Re fire alarms taking 2 mins to respond. Thinking about that, I wonder if some of that is related to the above – if the fire starts in a compartmentalised room, it make take some time for smoke to leak around doors, and trigger it. By which time the kitchen will be properly ablaze, and you’re then into the escalation. My open plan smoke alarm probably takes far less time for kitchen fire smoke to reach and trigger, by which time fire will have advanced far less – and may even be treatable if you have e.g. extinguishers**

** not saying don’t have extinguishers but more advice from the SFB was pretty well don’t bother, useful if you start a fire yourself and can react immediately, if you discover a fire that has started get you and the kids out rather than get in beyond your means…. it’s only property and it (should be) insured.

How many people have a correctly installed fire door with intumescent strip between their kitchen or utility room and the rest of the house

so I made sure they are proper heavy fire resistant ones!

utterly pointless unless you have an automatic door closer fitted also!

Agreed, in the fire survey the SFB did while fitting our alarms* they winced because we have open plan downstairs

Did they tut at your gas hob as well (if you have one)? I’m amazed they aren’t trying to ban them and only allowing induction!

Life is full of risks and the chances of the dishwasher igniting* are certainly way too small to affect house design decisions.

* Sod the inspections – appliances don’t last long enough to require an inspection! 😉

not saying don’t have extinguishers but more advice from the SFB was pretty well don’t bother

Chances are a dishwasher or washing machine fire would also be at the back/underneath a worktop with units either side – the extinguisher might be pretty ineffective.
Isn’t the advise simply to get out?

Our house has door closers and fire doors with intumescent strips.

Whatsmore, how is the electric heating of water in the dishwasher magically much more efficient than a kettle?

Theres less water to heat.

And our dishwasher goes on at night because the electricity is 1/4 the price.

@jivehoneyjive

Whatsmore, how is the electric heating of water in the dishwasher magically much more efficient than a kettle?

Because a dishwasher is a sealed insulated box. if you blocked the spout and wrapped your kettle in insulation it would be more efficient. Our new dishwasher is so well insulated that the worktop doesn’t even get warm when its on a hot cycle whereas our old one would.

Isn’t the advise simply to get out?

as I wrote: if you discover a fire that has started get you and the kids out rather than get in beyond your means…. it’s only property and it (should be) insured.

Their view was if you were doing flammable work (IDK, maybe soldering copper joints, or whatever) then a small portable extinguisher that you could have to hand just in case you set fire to the floorboards was sensible. I have a fireblanket next to my Putoline DFF, just in case.

utterly pointless unless you have an automatic door closer fitted also!

Disagree. Bedtime routines are that doors are closed – door closers are useful where you can’t rely on an admin control (ie a human doing it) but in a house with three bedrooms off one landing it’s dead easy to manage.

And yes, they did comment on the gas hob, and the wife’s habit of putting the oven glove on top of the extractor hood where it could fall down and catch fire. But it’s so turn on and offable…….

Also, with regards materials to produce dishwashers – have you ever had a look inside one? They are very simple. A bit of sheet metal and wire, a load of injection moulded components and some very basic electronics. I reckon it’s pretty far down the embedded energy league table. Probably less than a phone, and we’ve got 4 of those.

So washing up thread has ended up as a full on risk management thread.

Has anyone applied ALARP and Hierarchy of Controls to washing dishes?

I suppose if I did I would be getting rid of my dishwasher today, compared to my original plan of having 2.

I turn everything off at the plug that isn’t in use, after reading this about a microwave exploding in the middle of the night:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/08/experience-my-microwave-nearly-killed-me

So in the end it comes down to expert advice being that you shouldn’t run them overnight, which you are choosing to ignore. It’s not ‘my’ advice and it’s not particularly for me to defend the advice, I’m just passing that advice on. I’ve tried to answer your queries and in the end your answer is to rebut them and say it’s my problem, that it’s an obsession. I’ve only looked them up to answer your probing, which was a mistake. So – I’m just passing on the expert advice and saying why I follow it.

Sure. There were some parallel conversations last night and I appreciate the further reading. Please believe me, I’m not having a dig at you personally. Rather as I said, I’m trying to understand this advice rather than take it on blind faith. False Authority Syndrome is a thing. Sometimes even official information can be wrong. It’s healthy to question sources and try to understand reasoning, if we believe everything we read on the Internet then we end up with things like brexit.

But go on, your choice.

I know it is, and you yours. I’m not trying to talk you out of doing what you’re doing, with my luck you’d have a dishwasher-related house fire next week if I did.