i undertake, but ALWAYS with great care, as ive come close to being taken out before,
when im turning left in my car, i dont check my left mirror to see if some nutter has come shooting up on the inside, i see it, as a cyclist, that its the cyclists responsibility to stay safe, because so many drivers dont seem to know we exist, and im fine with that.
in the same breath, i wont worry if some biffer in her 4×4 gets irrate because ive cut across her in a static traffic queue. im looking out for number 1 when im on the road.
the sign is just a reminder for you, and the blind spot on a wagons left hand side can be huge

People will disagree with this but this is what I find

In London if there is a queue of stationary traffic, cyclists tend to go down the left(undetake) and motorbikers the centre(overtake) and scooters tend to go any which way they please.

Personally I dont always like going down the center because often there’ll be a motorcyclist coming right at you or behind you also trying to over take but obviously in some situations it makes more sense.

Anyhow I think alot of these deaths occur because people are filtering down the left but then the lights suddenly change and they have not managed to get far enough in front of the lorry for them to be seen and lorry turns into them.

I think that traffic lights need some kind of signal to suggest there about to change I realise this is why they go orange but its not long enough. Maybe even a count down so you can judge when it is safe to filter down the traffic.

Frankly this could quite also happen if the driver of a lorry was turning right as far a I can see. Especially if the driver was sat on the left.

I see that bs a sensible reminder not as a threat or warming. Not all cyclists have flawless road sense.

As with Olly – I undertake but I’m very VERY aware of the danger it puts me in. If traffic looks like it may move off soon I’ll wait instead. IF theres someone signalling left I’ll wait behind them unless the lights have only just changed to red. A wagon being at the front makes little difference to me as I’ll usually either a) hang behind him because he fills the lane completely or b) get in front of him so he will see me, or turn left behind me. The point is being aware of what other people will do – assume no-one will look out for you and be hyper-vigilant but that doesnt stop you from undertaking in queueing traffic (or overtaking) so long as you make sure you dont get caught out. IF you do get caught out then its as much your fault as the other persons.

As a driver I personally wouldnt expect there to be someone in my left blindspot at a junction. Likewise as a cyclist I wouldnt BE in someones left blindspot as I know that as a driver I’d not be expecting someone there myself.

That’s a given, and part of undertaking with care.

The trouble is that it isn’t a given at all. Most cyclists have no idea how much danger they are putting themselves in by undertaking an HGV at a junction. Left-turning HGVs are the number one killer of cyclists in London – probably in the rest of the country.

Always, always, either hang back or go round the right-hand side.

I nearly always over take but then i don’t live or ride in london which seems to have different attitudes(an observation not haveing a go at any one). when i over take i always keep one eye on the cars i am passing to see if the indicate (not that every one does mind) but i reason that most people at least look in the right hand mirror when turning right they never seem to check the left. I do find being on the left much mor intimidating as on the right i can chose wether to pass the car or wait but it is less easy to do thison the left i also find that some cars pull over to the left to let me pass on the right when they are going in slow moving traffic, mind you some cocks also pull over to the right to block you and this also happens to some motorbikes ( I suspect that they are the same people who have to get past you to join the que of slow moving cars 10 yards in front).

sorry DezB didnt mean to question your manhood, more i was trying to convey the idea that many people riding on roads feel they should stay near the pavement where they are ‘safe’, yet this can be the least safe place to be at times.

regarding your pic, i cannot say until i see how the traffic deals with it – if the lane is kept free/clean i would obviously use it. If it is regularly encroached by traffic/parked cars, i would overtake.

Anyhow I think alot of these deaths occur because people are filtering down the left but then the lights suddenly change and they have not managed to get far enough in front of the lorry for them to be seen and lorry turns into them.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can’t see them.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can’t see them.

Oh bollocks, what complete crap.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece

Undertaking lorries is deathly unless they are stopped and you can get past quickly. The worst is if the pavement has a fence on the roadside so you have nowhere to escape.

I think the stickers are a good idea, lots of cyclists out there are not clued up to the risks.

Btw I prefer overtaking but will undertake if there’s plenty of room – undertaking runs a greater risk of getting doored too.

So let me get this right Mike, we are now saying undertake lorries and ignore red lights. Right off to try that now.

The stickers/signs are a good idea, along with the “if you can’t see my mirrors I can’t see you” ones

If you value your life, you don’t ever, EVER undertake an HGV. Cars fine, HGV’s never.

I periodically drive 7.5T trucks. The rearward visibility is terrible, even with the so called “blind spot mirrors” (remeber the left hand wingmirror is about 8′ away from the driver). The only accident I’ve had (touches wood) was when i drove a truck over the front of a Merc A-class that tried to undertake me when I was indicating to change lanes in a gyratory system. Literally the first I knew of it was the crunch as the bonnet went behind the front wheel. I still couldn’t see anything in the mirror. A cyclist would have been killed. Articulated vehicles are even worse. They literally have to commit to tight manouvres blind – as soon as the trailer is at an angle to the cab, the mirrors just show the side of the trailer.

There are a LOT of cyclists (and drivers) who have never sat in the cab of an HGV and realised how little you can see. There are a lot of cyclist who have all the road sense of a freshly laid dog turd. That’s how people get killed and why they bother with the signs.

So let me get this right Mike, we are now saying undertake lorries and ignore red lights. Right off to try that now.

Can you show me where I wrote that?

If you value your life, you don’t ever, EVER undertake an HGV. Cars fine, HGV’s never.

Never?

“Warning Cyclist- I might turn left”.

So they can overtake us and immediately turn left directly in front. Of course when it happened to me, I got knocked off because they had no warning sticker. Doh!

That’s all right now then.

the gospel according to Olly: Under taking

roll up the inside at the lights, slowly enough to drop anchor when someone opens a door on you, and with one eye on each wing mirror, one on each set of brake lights, one eye on the traffic lights for the queue you are in, one eye on the lights of the currently moving traffic (crossing the junction for instance), one eye on pedestrians, one eye looking out for other cyclists and mopeds.

IF youve got that covered, then you stand a good chance of survivial
if the lights flip before you get to the front of the queue, as the car in front of you moves off, but the car on your right pauses for a moment, take the space created and keep it, taking a central lane position, until you feel safe enough to choose to let the car behind you pass.
Keeping dominant control of the traffic with your road position works wonders.
i dont think i would ever undertake a lorry at the front of the queue myself, ide rather get behind it.

Home time!! (or at least time to slip off to the toilets to put on my riding home in the filth attire)

You have loads of eyes Olly.

Are you talking about undertaking, or filtering down the left?

Do you even know what you are arguing about?

Olly is a spider and I claim my £5.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can’t see them.

Mike

Maybe you should actually read the Times article you link to. It does not say that the majority of deaths involved women. It says that the HGVs were responsible for 86 per cent of deaths of women cyclists (as compared to 47 per cent of men). Not the same thing at all. So as men make up the majority of cyclists in London, the majority of deaths involving HGVs were involving male cyclists.

To try to deduce from this that undertaking HGVs is safe provided that you then cross the stop line is dangerous and stupid. As a college lecturer I would have thought you would be able to spot the flawed logic..

I’m sorry to get angry about this but on the routes I regularly ride around London there are places where 4 cyclists have died. For me this isn’t an academic discussion.

I really don’t care if you put your own life at risk but somebody out there might actually thing you know what you are talking about and follow your advice – and pay the price. Stick to cheap shots at naked estate agents.

Undertaking HGvs at left-hand junctions is dangerous. DON’T DO IT – EVER. No matter how clever and invulnerable you think you are.

Undertaking trucks is only dangerous if you let it be. Be aware and its fine. Its all about awareness and appreciation of hazards and those stickers may just help.

go past slowly watching the lights. Get infront of the truck so the driver can see you. If the lights change as you are alongside stop and be prepared to bail – do not ride off alongside a moving truck – that is where the danger is. If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

Some of you guys need to learn a bit about riding.

OK, the point I was making is that the sticker makes no difference……
Its like “objects in this mirror may appear closer”. “this coffee could be hot” “may contain nuts”……

To survive on a bike? As many have said, get away from the killing zone, at lights i sometime get onto the pavement, become a pedestrian for a few secs then back on the road. I frequently “look” at drivers and try to make “eye contact” (dont wear sunglasses) undertake- yes, overtake-yes. get deliberately in the middle – yes. jump red lights -yes (sometimes) one way streets- yes (sometimes)

How do you get others to be safe, it aint done by rules and warning signs.

A cyclist rode up the gap you see in the mirror then squeezed between the car and the moving truck. I wasn’t quick enough to catch him in the shot.
A LGV can edge towards the kerb for various reasons, just be careful you’re not there if it does.

As a london messenger of 3 1/2 years and not one single accident, do NOT piss about with hgvs, if its ahead, let it go, whats it gonna save you time wise eh? Give them as much space as they need and stay where you can be seen. Having spoken to the police on this matter more than once, even experienced riders have thought ahh that’ll be ok…..nah afraid not sunshine….don’t even think about it, stay out of their way and stay in one piece….oh and obtain the 6th sense, knowing what a vehicle will do before it does it…they all have body language, know how to read it, it saves me shit everyday or so.

Never ever undertake an HGV, it’s simply not worth the few seconds you think you’ll gain.

John Franklin Cycling Techniques for Adults and Children. (Cyclecraft)If anybody is interested this book isan excellent read.

Undertaking – isn’t that when they put you in a box?

It’s all about riding for self preservation. Times you do, times you don’t. If you’re still alive, then you’ve been guessing right.

Them that haven’t guessed right won’t be posting their experiences on this forum.

If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

Not necessarily true, given how trucks’ rear wheels cut the corner. If you’re in front of them then you’re potentially at risk even if stationary, since you are on the road and trucks often turn so their rear wheels pretty much nudge the kerb. I suspect you may be thinking of a scenario where you are totally safe, but that’s not what you’ve written, so the warning needs giving before somebody follows what you’re suggesting and puts themselves in the line of fire.

yes i will undertake but try to establish a position in a gap where driver behind can see me – accept that i’m there – never undertake trucks or vans

very strange experience last year when i was on A road into Sheffield – 2 lanes regular jam and traffic moving at 5mph – 10mph not actually stopped – moving to middle is bad cos there is a right turn lane coming up with tail backs and so lots of lane switching – anyhow am up behind a skip truck and sitting there and a guy in a fluro “bikeability instructor” vest just pedals past and undertakes the skip truck – this with left turn traffic lights and plenty of other turnings in next 100yards

as to the original post can only hope the sticker was well intentioned rather than FU

A racer – you miss my point. If you get infront of them then then yes you are the line of fire – but the driver can see you and you can pull away infront of the truck as the lights change. Its when you are alongside the truck that you are in danger. If you are filtering up the inside and the lights change when you ar halfway along the truck and you stop as the truck moves off you will be behind the line at the junction thus not in the area where the trucks rear wheels go. The danger comes if the truck moves off while you are still alongside and you don’t stop. so the truck turns left as you cross the line f the junction – thats when you get crushed.

Being alongside an HGV is pretty risky even in a car, cos of how long they are. I never pull alongside one at a multi lane roundabout if I can help it.

I think those signs are at worst harmless and at best a very good idea. Like most on here, I think I’m fairly safe, concentrate very hard to stay that way and have a decade’s experience of riding on the roads. The sign adds nothing to my safety. For the huge numbers of apparently inexperienced people on the road in London in the last couple of years, lessons about the dangers of messing with HGVs do not seem to be sinking in. If the sign reminds a couple of people to be careful on the inside of the truck then I am grateful to the Plumb Centre for making the effort to put it there.

🙂

Maybe you should actually read the Times article you link to…

Andym, I used the words “I think” at the beginning for a reason, as I was just saying something from memory. It was only after you eloquently refuted by argument (“Oh bollocks, what complete crap.”) that I searched for the article. The point I was making was that attitude and road-placement make a big difference to how safe it is to undertake any traffic, which is backed up by that article.

somebody out there might actually thing you know what you are talking about and follow your advice – and pay the price

My advice is on an internet forum. I’d hope the take it in the same manner they’d take any advice on here. Given that it’s on a thread in which the pros and cons are discussed, I’m sure they’ll be safe.

Stick to cheap shots at naked estate agents.

Ooh, cutting.

Undertaking HGvs at left-hand junctions is dangerous. DON’T DO IT – EVER. No matter how clever and invulnerable you think you are.

Ah, you see I’ve never recommended anyone do that. I’ve said it’s fine to “undertake” if done sensibly and making sure you can get past while the HGV (or whatever vehicle) is still stationary. Right on a left-turn would be a silly place to do it though, just as overtaking near any junction is dangerous.

im no HGV, (im a 206) but sitting in the left lane of three earlier today (one left, one straight on and one right) a young lady tootles up beside me on my left, at the lights.

i didnt want to pressure her around the corner, so gave her some room (i try to be helpful to cyclists when im driving) and sure enough she tootles straight on.
if ide tried to get ahead of her on the left turn, as so many people do, i would have taken her out good and proper.

hope her lucky streak continues, and when it runs out she learns a lesson without a trip to A&E

TandemJeremy – Member
Undertaking trucks is only dangerous if you let it be. Be aware and its fine. Its all about awareness and appreciation of hazards and those stickers may just help.

go past slowly watching the lights. Get infront of the truck so the driver can see you. If the lights change as you are alongside stop and be prepared to bail – do not ride off alongside a moving truck – that is where the danger is. If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

Some of you guys need to learn a bit about riding.

Worth quoting as TJ has it totally correct.

By the way, I was nearly taken out by a lorry which started to overtake me at a totally inappropriate place this morning. As he moved back over into “his lane” he hadn’t passed me properly and the last few feet of his lorry (like a massive flat-bed) very nearly took me out. Tosser.
What sign should I have had on my back? “Warning may be moving at more than 5mph”?!
There are many many more dangers out there than this undertaking lark. Be aware of them all and you’ll be ok.