Good thinking lowey & rangerbill.
What might really help facilitate such an approach would be an on-line database of routes to which we could add, hosted and presented to the LAs by a recognised body (or publication?)….Any ideas ?

Is that the bit from Stephenson Ground into Seathwaite? Didn’t realise they had done that too

Not unless they’ve done it this week.

Rangerbill, unfortunately, as MTBers have no real rights apart from access onto certain trails (land owners have no obligation to make surfaces suitable fro cyclists) a single opposing view from a single horse rider or rambler has more sway than 20 mtbers. This is the response we’re getting in Sheffield anyway. Complaining in advance seems to do little to support our cause.

Richpips, dont immediately recognise that pic as the run to the Newfield Inn, but the track Here has been done. This is where it enters the woods where the massive boulders were. They have basically imported muck and levelled it.

Yep Loweys right its been done into seathwaite, Richpips photo is the lower section on Walna on the seathwaite site by the look of it.(Long house gill).

Lowey, I see.

As anc pointed out the pic is indeed the section by Long House Gill.

Yep Loweys right its been done into seathwaite

Definitely won’t be bothering with this route again then – that was another of my favourite bits. :/

We have moved our boys riding weekend next year from coniston to Keswick as a result of this lol.

Ok then how about we put forward a list of routes that “could be potential” targets for trail sanitisation and follow it up like Ranger Bill says.

Is the list of complaints received by the National Park about BWs being impassable a public document?

Could be useful to see it.

Regarding rights…..

WS is currently a restricted byway. That means it has vehicular – IE MTB rights. Unlike on a bridlepath, cycles do not have to give way to horses and pedestrians. They are not using the route by concession. Legally a restricted byway is virtually the same as a tarmacced “B” road with the only difference being that motor vehicles cannot use it without lawfull authority – which exists for the public in many cases. It hasn’t been proven that vehicular rights don’t exist on Walna.

Soooo…..

Unless we want to see the national park authorities fail their duties to MTB’s in order to appease the militant element of the ramblers that want every ROW sanitised to the point where it can be walked in carpet slippers we’d better start holding the national park authorities to account for failing to protect our amenity!

There’s targets for national parks to provide easy access paths and ensure all row are passable on foot. However there’s no target for a proportion of the routes to be challenging.

Many routes that have been sanitised, or are under threat of sanitisation, have legal widths of 20ft+. Why do they have to sanitise the entire width of the route? Much more practical and cheaper to just sanitise sufficient width to allow pedestrians to pass on foot.

grum

Maybe on a boggy track but a lot of the Lake District stuff is stony anyway – there is also evidence that lots of the tiny ‘steps’ cut by walkers boots on steep ground are actually worse for erosion than a more spread out tyre tread.

Evidence? I would be interested in seeing it – the only research I have seen on this is inapplicable to these sorts of conditions. Not proven either way.

Routes like the one richpips has a picture of are eroded messes to me of no great interest or merit. They need to be repaired to make them sustainable. Why you want all your tracks to be rocky eroded messes is beyond me.

its about access for all and sustainablity.

Evidence? I would be interested in seeing it – the only research I have seen on this is inapplicable to these sorts of conditions. Not proven either way.

Can’t remember – there was some study I think from New Zealand?

Routes like the one richpips has a picture of are eroded messes to me of no great interest or merit.

Yeah that bit isn’t very interesting and I’ve never ridden it as a descent. TBH Walna Scar wasn’t that amazing anyway, I suspect because it has already had bodged efforts at ‘fixing’ it and a lot of it was just very loose and shaly. The bit down to Seathwaite from Stephenson Ground not on the Walna Scar Road was great though.

Just because you don’t like this type of riding doesn’t mean other people shouldn’t be able to enjoy it.

Grum
that will be the stuff I have seen before – completely inapplicable to this sort of situation. (occasional bikes on overgrown hard surfaced road IIRC)Sorry. There is very little research on this sort of issue and what there is is bobbins quality

Just because you don’t like this type of riding doesn’t mean other people shouldn’t be able to enjoy it.

fair enough but its fairly useless as a route for horse and walkers – and will simply continue to erode away. Its about sharing for all. I helped repair / sanitise a local route. We (mtbers) did not consider tha sectiona priority but when I actually saw who was using it and how much difficulty they had with the section we were repairing then it became clearly the right thing to do. tourers with panniers, newbs, walkers with disabilities, people with kids on tagalongs.

so equally why should the eroded rocky mess be left for the few making it useless for the many

Just view it as cyclical – it erodes, is repaired and then erodes again

Grum
that will be the stuff I have seen before – completely inapplicable to this sort of situation. (occasional bikes on overgrown hard surfaced road IIRC)Sorry. There is very little research on this sort of issue and what there is is bobbins quality

Fair enough – although the number of massively eroded paths in the Lakes that never or very rarely see any mountain bikers on them suggests that walkers can do a fair amount of damage. I suspect that in the dry on mostly stony tracks mountain bikers do very little damage (unless they are numptys that skid all over the place – I very rarely lock out my wheels).

Indeed walkers can and do do a lot of damage and it does appear to vary with different surface types as well as different users.

Routes like the one richpips has a picture of are eroded messes to me of no great interest or merit

Eh? rocky, loose and steep?

fair enough but its fairly useless as a route for horse and walkers

How is that useless for walkers?.

TJ, sometimes I think you get a rough time on here, but quite often you spout utter bo11ox.

Nobeerinthefridge –

I helped repair / sanitise a local route. We (mtbers) did not consider the section a priority but when I actually saw who was using it and how much difficulty they had with the section we were repairing then it became clearly the right thing to do. tourers with panniers, newbs, walkers with disabilities, people with kids on tagalongs.

Walking on eroded unstable boulder slopes like that is not great. Remember not everyone who does this is young and fully mobile

And thats right – I don’t particularly enjoy riding on it either – no technical merit just hang on and bounce over the rocks. I’d rather ride some nice singletrack

Erosion like that upsets me – watching great old paths descend into unstable bouldery messes

Edit – I have ridden a few of these “classic” northern english routes and they do nothing for me. Thats a personal opinion as my posts make clear

Remember not everyone who does this is young and fully mobile

Aye, and that is why we have guide books and graded walks, cos not everyone can do everything

no technical merit just hang on and bounce over the rocks

Speak for youself, never heard of picking lines? utilising the whole width of the trail?. This sort of trail offers far more than tight singletrack.

Not every walker is a fan of flat boring trails either. I’ve been fell walking and climbing in the Lakes since the late 60s. Even back then many of the popular paths were badly eroded. Like mtbers now, this erosion was seen by sessioned fell walkers & mountaineers as part of the challenge. We were a cut above the ‘rambler’ and felt FPs should be left in their rough state. If people thought paths were too rough they shouldn’t be up there. I was one of them (still am to some degree)!

However, over time the repaired paths have bedded in and more recently better built, in that you have to place your feet, which takes the tedium away.

Back to WS – these flat trails just encourage ever faster speeds which just scares the walking fraternity. I don’t enjoy walking on them but my wife prefers them. So, to cater for me and the missus, a sanitation balance needs to be struck.

My opinion obviously 🙂

Its all about balancing the needs of all. these paths are not just for expert MTBers.

One persons techy challenge is anothers eroded mess, one persons sanitisation is anothers repair. Repairs will bed in again. Good repairs will make a nice trail. These paths need to be sustainable for the future as well

Erosion like that upsets me – watching great old paths descend into unstable bouldery messes

It’s not a great old path though, it was effectively a road for most of it’s history AFAIK, and has probably spent a good amount of it’s time fairly eroded and rough. I’m not sure why a smooth gravelled road is more attractive than an eroded rocky one anyway. Or would you prefer it to be tarmaced and then wheelchairs and mobility scooters can get up there?

Remember not everyone who does this is young and fully mobile

Do we really have to try and turn reasonably high level mountain passes into a smooth high street so that they are ‘accessible’? I’m sorry but it’s mountainous countryside, by it’s very nature it is rough, steep, difficult terrain. Perhaps we should flatten some of the hills as well…

No but I would like them sustainable and stable – that path is neither.
Oh – and very little of the lakes is rough steep and difficult nor is it mountainous. thats not a high mountain pass – thats a bridleway on a hill.

Its a surprisingly varied group of people that go up in the hills and why should a few “expert mtbers” have paths that suit them and no one else.

I don’t want the entire countryside tarmaced over but I hate to see eroded unstable paths. I think there is a really nasty streak of “I’m alright jack sod you” in the attitude of those who don’t want to see paths repaired

Oh – and very little of the lakes is rough steep and difficult nor is it mountainous.

Don’t be a dick. 🙄

Look, I’ve biked and walked extensively in the Alps and the Pyrenees, and yes the Lake District is nowhere near on the same scale (and nor is Scotland), but for many people it is still considered rough, steep and difficult terrain to walk and bike around. And as for the tedious argument about whether they are mountains or not…..

Ta – just ‘cos you don’t like my point of view.

Why make things artificially hard to make it seem more extreme? Its just a path on a hill

this is not sustainable. At what point will you want it repaired or are you content to allow it to erode down to bedrock with a big pile of stones at the bottom of the hill?

Personally I want to stop erosion and have put my muscle where my mouth is It upsets me to watch paths erode away so what was once a nice path becomes that eroded unstable mess of rocks

do you want the hills only accessible to expert mtbers? or are you prepared to allow others to share?

Do you really think very little of the lakes is rough, steep or difficult? Or are you just being argumentative? Perhaps you should look up the meaning of those words in the dictionary if you really think that. What is your experience of the Lakes exactly anyway?

What your opinion really boils down to is ‘I don’t like this type of riding, so I don’t care about it being ruined’.

At what point will you want it repaired

I’m happy for it to be repaired, just not like this.

Personally I want to stop erosion

Well the only way to do that would be to never go walking or biking, and encourage others to do the same.

do you want the hills only accessible to expert mtbers?

The hills are accessible to anyone who’s physically capable – there’s plenty to do around them for those that aren’t. I spent several months unable to ride in the Lakes because I wasn’t physically capable due to illness – never once did I think how unfair it was that they made the hills too big and steep for me to ride up.

I don’t think our relatively scarce and valuable countryside it should be turned into a theme park where everything is easy and ‘safe’ and managed.

Personally I want to stop erosion and have put my muscle where my mouth is

you want to stop a natural process?? did you do geography at school? do you know how the hills were formed in the first place, do you have the same problem with the tide, that washes away the lovely land, perhaps you could spend a weekend stopping it from coming in.

Chapel Gate was resurfaced recently and it a wierd surfacing. You never saw many people on it as I guess walkers prefer Mam Tor next to it so I question the waste in public funds on Chapel’….rangerbill is there also a public liability question? Ie a walker etc could attempt to sue the council over ‘neglect’?

BTW Walna was ok but it was a long haul up wasn’t it? I’m not slating it, just thought it was a lot of effort for the few scary bits..

ChrisE and TJ have very valid points about other user groups.
Rangerbill is right – this needs action from us, not bitching on here.
Who else on here is a member of IMBA?
Walna Scar and Garburn aren’t ‘just’ bridleways, so are more likely to get ‘done’. HOWEVER – I’m not certain of the legalities/details, so instead of spouting on here I’m going find out.
Plan:
Look into legalities of different ROW
Find lists of each type
Find out which ROW are in line for surfacing
Contact IMBA (been a quiet member for a few years)
Look for local regional groups doing this sort of work, or try to organise.

Personally I never thought Walna was that great as a descent down to Coniston. It became better a few years after they last surfaced it. It now looks rideable al the way up, giving easier access to the Stephenson Ground trails, so not all bad.

Seems to me there is a sizeable chunk of folk on here who like to ride wide, loose bouldery tracks at speed – The Beast in the Peak, Walna etc. Prbably nice for making you feel the £££ spent on ‘all mountain’ bikes was worth it. Not a criticism, but bear in mind that there are all sorts of other trail users who do more than push a big bouncy bike up a hill, in order to blast back down over rocks.

p.s. TJ – To say the Lakes isn’t rocky or mountainous is fatuous. There are plenty of rocks (as hard as any Scottish rocks), the weather can change quickly and kill the under prepared and you can find yourself a long way from help, without anyone around. If you’ve not been to the wilder areas (I’m guessing you have and you’re just stirring), I’ll happily show you some mountainous bits. It’s not all about altitude e.g. Stac Pollaidh?

^^^

As posted the legalities of Walna have yet to be confirmed. Currently it’s restricted byway with a valid application to improve it’s status to byway open to all traffic.

What your opinion really boils down to is ‘I don’t like this type of riding, so I don’t care about it being ruined’.

No

My opinion is that these trails are for all and the bleating about sanitisation is elitist and selfish.

Paths need maintenance.

As for the comments about rocky and mountainous I was pointing out the daft nature of Grums post “

grum – Do we really have to try and turn reasonably high level mountain passes into a smooth high street so that they are ‘accessible’? I’m sorry but it’s mountainous countryside, by it’s very nature it is rough, steep, difficult terrain. Perhaps we should flatten some of the hills as well…

Is not what I said at all and to claim that these trails have to remain eroded messes because its “rough, steep, difficult terrain” is fatuous. These trails exist because they were routes used from one place to another because they were easier and more conveninet than other routes

These trails exist because they were routes used from one place to another because they were easier and more conveninet than other routes

Agree totally. Walna Sacr and Garburn were built, and extensively used, in the past for foot and hoofed traffic, as the easiest routes between settlements. To claim that they shouldn’t be surfaced is daft. Having input to the nature of surfacing and organising for us to be consulted over it, is what’s needed from our point of view.

e.g. Scar Gap from Buttermere to Ennerdale has collapsed in parts due to flooding. Work will be done soon – but does anyone here know what’s planned?

A quick search shows that there is an application in to amend the track richpips has photoed above – Park Head Rddown to Seathwaite:
Quote from County ROW “To amend the bridleway known as Park Head Road to a byway open to all traffic”. This would surely open it up to Walna Scar levelling?
Application in to do the same to Garburn
Let’s get organised folks!!

Boxelder – speaks much common sense as usual.

Some years ago I got into dialogue with IMBA(UK) on ROW issues in the Dales. I’m afraid I made very little progress and the outcome was they said they had very little manpower (fair enough) but was spending all of it on forest etc man-made routes and was not prepared (or able) to get involved in bridleways, byways etc.

We (as a user group)) are really missing a trick here. We need a national group/association to represent us at government level (local and national). When they did the Pennine BW, up past out house, I moaned to the Park about the crap gate latches, I wanted auto-latches that you just slam shut, but was told the British Horse Soc (BHS) had ‘approved’ them and although the IMNA had been asked they had not replied so that’s why we got them.

On the Dales LAF the mountain bike seat was taken by a guy (as an individual) who never turned up to any of the meetings so again we had no voice.

When the government were consulting on the CROW Act again they couln’t find any organisation to ask (except the CTC who didnt see it as important to them)

I know we’re all too busy riding to do any of this but we really, really must.

Perhaps we should get 6/8 of us to do it under the banner of IMBA or TCA or some other established group before we loose much more voice.

C

This is all very interesting.

I live in Leeds and over recent years a growing number of local trails have had a similar treatment. In some cases I can see why – e.g. installing traffic free cycle routes – and it has been beneficial to others whether personally I like it or not.
In other cases I just can’t understand it – in total I’d guess this has resulted in the loss of probably a few miles of beautiful woodland singletrack.
OK none of this is as shocking a decision as to resurface Walna Scar (which was great), but as a local issue to me and other riders it has just as much impact.

I have recently tried to contact the council regarding this very issue but have drawn a blank on getting in contact with the correct person – thanks to rangerbill for suggeting the ROW officer – I’ll give that a try.

Agree we do need to get organised on this issue – increased outdoor usage increases the chances of other users requesting a trail being resurfaced. It’s absolutely fine for others to have that point of view – but ours is equally valid and we need to make sure it is heard and considered in due process.

FWIW This is a much bigger issue for me than any attempt to open out the footpath network to MTBers

Perhaps we should get 6/8 of us to do it under the banner of IMBA or TCA or some other established group before we loose much more voice.

Count me in. I’ve just contacted Cumbria/IMBA/CTC

If anyone knows more about these issues and get give me some pointers, that would be great.
Look at what our saddle and hooved fellow trail users are up to: Includes MTBers too

On a brighter note: From the Westmoreland Gazette:

Axe must fall somewhere, says county council
By SCOTT KIRK
THE Wainwright Society has slammed Cumbria
County Council over plans to cut £806,000 funding to
countryside access services such as footpaths.
The society fears that less money will have an effect
on maintenance and access to public rights of way…..
…..In response, Coun Tony Markley, economy and
highways portfolio holder for CCC, said: “This is not
an ideal position to be in at all but we have to do the
best we can. We are having to make these cuts and we
have to look at everyone and everything because of
that.
“If anybody has any good ideas or opportunities to
save money then we would be very happy to listen to
them.”
A Cumbria County Council spokesman added: “The
county is currently consulting on a range of budget
options and we’d encourage everyone to get involved
in that process.

Perhaps we could suggest some savings……. 🙂

Seems to me there is a sizeable chunk of folk on here who like to ride wide, loose bouldery tracks at speed – The Beast in the Peak, Walna etc. Prbably nice for making you feel the £££ spent on ‘all mountain’ bikes was worth it. Not a criticism, but bear in mind that there are all sorts of other trail users who do more than push a big bouncy bike up a hill, in order to blast back down over rocks.

wow what would you say if you were criticising this choice then.
Do i have to ride trail centres now?
TBH the main effect this will have on me is to make me more likely to ride footpaths that are challenging which is a shame for all concerned.

Boxelder – can we email this week (when I get a mo) and see if we can move this on? Sitting in committee rooms, driving to peoples houses to meet, responding in writing to government consultations is so boring and a real pain when you think you should be spending that tine riding but the alternative is to bury your head, and get ignored time after time……..

C

wow what would you say if you were criticising this choice then.

Junkyard – I do it myself, so not a criticism. I also ride trail centres, footpaths, road, cross bike etc. I’m just saying that people need to take other users into account.

Do i have to ride trail centres now?

Why? Because a couple of BW’s have been improved? Or are you assuming I only ride trail centres?

TBH the main effect this will have on me is to make me more likely to ride footpaths that are challenging which is a shame for all concerned.

Or you could do something about changing the way these ROW are ‘looked after’. Your response makes you seem a touch selfish TBH

OK none of this is as shocking a decision as to resurface Walna Scar (which was great), but as a local issue to me and other riders it has just as much impact.

Why is it wrong to resurface an eroded ancient right of way?

Why is it wrong to resurface an eroded ancient right of way?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with resurfacing, it’s just that some of this work seems like they’re replacing paths with roads.
I’m sure most walkers would rather walk on a rougher, narrow path instead of something you could drive a double-decker bus on too.