• This topic has 156 replies, 64 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by Cougar.
Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 157 total)
  • Voter Suppression coming to the UK
  • Premier Icon grum
    Free Member

    Evidence collected by the Commission in its review of electoral fraud revealed that fraud is not widespread in the UK but, despite this, a significant proportion of the public remain concerned that it is taking place.

    This has the potential to undermine confidence in the electoral system if not addressed.

    Significant proportions of the public believe all sorts of BS, pandering to them is how we are in the mess we are in now.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

    Also, like the BBC, the Electoral Commission is being threatened by the Tories.

    Premier Icon p7eaven
    Free Member

    £80 to renew

    Holy shit. That was a ‘to do’ item that I’ve now crossed off the kitchen noticeboard. Ours will have to wait now until better times.

    Premier Icon willard
    Full Member

    And that is the core of the problem.

    I have, to my knowledge, four different government approved IDs available to use to identify myself within Sweden, not counting the eID that I can use to authenticate to government services.

    My Swedish driving license
    My tax ID card
    My residency permit
    My work ID card.

    Any of these will identify me, legally, for the purpose of voting and confirm my status as a tax-paying resident. All are tied to my national ID number, something I can confirm electronically as well. I own a car and carry my driving license with me at all times, so always have one form of ID with me. When I get citizenship here, I will gain another form of approved ID, one that will allow me to travel Europe without a passport.

    When I vote, which I can for everything but the Swedish Parliament, I can identify myself with any of these methods to prove I am who I say I am. That allows the people working at the voting place confirm I am eligible to vite and to know what things I can vote in.

    I have zero problems with this arrangement.

    People here may not have a passport, but remember that, with a national ID card, they may not need one. I know a lot of people without a driving license, but they pay tax, so have a Skatteverket ID card (which identifies them). If they do not work, they have a personnummer with Skatteverket anyway, so will have an approved ID.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Full Member

    The whole idea is that demanding ID will disproportionally affect the poor, who are traditionally Labour supporters. That’s the only reason it’s being introduced.

    £80 for a passport is a lot to someone on Universal Credit who can’t afford to go on holiday.

    Premier Icon Houns
    Full Member

    Ah it’s ok, those who are an UC should go without food or pay their bills that weeks money

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    Lots of people haven’t bothered renewing passports as they don’t intend to travel any time soon and its £80 to renew – why would you?

    It’s an easy way to prove your are eligible to work in the UK. Most large organisations do ID checks as part of recruitment.

    To vote in labour CLP matters it’s not unknown for three forms of ID to be needed, membership card, photo ID and proof of address (to confirm you live in the constituency)

    However it’s overkill for the UK as we don’t generally have a requirement to carry ID and doing any fraud at scale is difficult I imagine.

    The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on “Facebook news” conspiracy theories can spread quickly

    Any legislation will have to deal with the ID less, I imagine some of them don’t vote now anyway and are not even on the electoral roll

    Premier Icon PrinceJohn
    Full Member

    When I voted last week I did so on a whim – as I was passing the Polling station, I had no ID, since Google/Apple pay has become a thing I rarely carry my wallet with ID.

    It is important to make voting simple, but it should still carry some weight and formality, I still don’t see why asking for ID is not a good idea. I suppose I don’t have a problem with having ID either, but do those 11m people want to vote ?

    The weight & formality is your name & address, what more do you need?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Full Member

    It is important to make voting simple,

    Nothing is more simple than not needing any ID and just being able to turn up.

    Given voter fraud is pretty much non existent, the current system works very well.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I imagine some of them don’t vote now anyway

    And how to we encourage them to vote? I know, wrap up voting in more red tape… that’ll get them engaged. That a new system disenfranchises people who already feel that they are the left behind and that there is no point voting isn’t a mark in its favour, in my opinion.

    Premier Icon ChrisL
    Full Member

    Unless a form of ID that is free to procure is provided then this also feels a bit poll taxy to me. As others have said there are people who would not easily find funds for a provisional driving license or a passport, and when the choice is to shell out or not to shell out and miss out voting in a safe seat or when the polls say one side are bound to win anyway then some people will choose to disenfranchise themselves rather in order to pay the bills.

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    And how to we encourage them to vote? I know, wrap up voting in more red tape… that’ll get them engaged. That a new system disenfranchises people who already feel that they are the left behind and that there is no point voting isn’t a mark in its favour, in my opinion.

    They aren’t voting when we have the most accessible system…..

    It could be argued that access isn’t the issue, it’s persuading people that they can have confidence in the system, or argued that there needs to be compulsion or a carrot or anything

    Premier Icon poly
    Free Member

    The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on “Facebook news” conspiracy theories can spread quickly


    @big_n_daft
    – this is a good point but is there evidence that this actually increased voter confidence because (1) this is not the only place I’ve seen it suggested this disproportionately suppresses voters who might not be inclined to support the tories (2) is about trying to introduce a reason for ID cards (and a big data economy) to go with them by the back door…

    Whereas (1) asking for a DOB when you go to vote would make it considerably harder to personate (2) might make it more obvious to election officials if someone was not who they said. Alternatively expecting people to present their poling card as a primary source of identification would seem to be better than just say name and address (but clearly there needs to be a fall back for people who have not received / lost their polling card).

    So my question, which I intended to ask for every govt policy for the next 5 years – “is this the time? surely the priority is the pandemic and rebuilding not tinkering with constitutions/voting rights?”

    Premier Icon mattyfez
    Free Member

    The thin end of the wedge isn’t quite so thin any more.

    Premier Icon Ewan
    Free Member

    This thread could be summarised with these (slightly confusing if you ask me) graphs from the FT:

    See also changing mayoral election rules.

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    this is a good point but is there evidence that this actually increased voter confidence because (1) this is not the only place I’ve seen it suggested this disproportionately suppresses voters who might not be inclined to support the tories (2) is about trying to introduce a reason for ID cards (and a big data economy) to go with them by the back door…

    ID cards in UK terms don’t have overwhelming support so I don’t see it happening. They are too “papers please” as Blair found out. I think there are ways of increasing confidence, but the challenge is that in our polarized politics it will be seen as too little or too much.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Full Member

    I think there are ways of increasing confidence

    A good way would to be just honest about there being no problem with voter fraud, instead of allowing the lie to linger and grow. God forbid we should have a political class who could be honest and inform the populace with actual truthful information.

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    ID cards in UK terms don’t have overwhelming support so I don’t see it happening.

    I’ve got an ID card, recently renewed for 0e. It’s not obligatory, and there are many alternatives I could present to vote including a hunting permit. In places with less than a 1000 inhabitants you need no papers whatsoever to vote.

    As with many things the idea that having to own and carry ID card in France is a mediatic invention, propaganda even. Yes it’s useful but no you aren’t obliged to have one and obviously not obliged to present one if the police ask for one. It’s easier than hanging around or possibly being taken to the station while they confirm who you are though.

    It really is one of those “what’s not to like?” things that if people were better informed they’d probably like the idea. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on “Facebook news” conspiracy theories can spread quickly

    Why is it so hard to spread facts with the same success?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key

    So we can counter that in one of two ways.

    1) Facts or
    2) Mandatory ID which makes voting more complex, adds costs, and realistically requires a new and completely free national ID method to be made available to everyone over 16. Or alternatively mandatory ID without any universal free ID method, which will disenfranchise millions of people

    Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.

    Premier Icon Gribs
    Full Member

    A good way would to be just honest about there being no problem with voter fraud, instead of allowing the lie to linger and grow. God forbid we should have a political class who could be honest and inform the populace with actual truthful information.

    We apparently have no problem with in person voter fraud but that may or not be because we don’t actually check if it’s happening. With the general low turnouts of people eligible to vote and easy access to the electoral roll, it’s currently possible to vote multiple times at different polling stations using a selection of names. You’d only risk being caught if the person had already voted. I personally don’t think it is a problem as postal vote fraud is much easier on a significant scale.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Full Member

    The last general election had a turnout of 67%, so picking random names of the electoral role, there would be a 67% chance of each voter fraud being detected. If that was happening it would be detected and reported.

    That kind of statement is just part of the misinformation propaganda being used to disenfranchise and strip away voting rights.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    Is there any other crime that gets a bill put forward just on the basis that it might exist, you never know, and anyway some people are worried in case it does?

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Is there any other crime that gets a bill put forward just on the basis that it might exist, you never know, and anyway some people are worried in case it does?

    Not in a functioning, rational democracy

    Premier Icon Philby
    Full Member

    The few cases of alleged voter fraud that I can remember being in the news were all related to postal votes, so having a photo ID would be useless.

    Premier Icon joat
    Full Member

    Does one of BoJo’s mates own an ID card making company?

    Premier Icon willard
    Full Member

    If they do not now, I would put money on them doing so before the contract is awarded.

    Sadly, some of the better/best tech for cryptographically secure IDs is owned by companies like Gemalto, which are now part of Thales, who are French. So if a contract does appear, does go to one of his mates and (crucially) does _not_ use a decent source of crypto from a reputable supplier (t.ex Gemalto), it will be next to useless and very open to duplication and/or fraud.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.

    So if you genuinely believe this isn’t being brought forward because it will in some way advantage the current government, then effectively the government’s legislative priorities are being dictated by Sue on Facebook who tells all her friend to take their own pens into the ballot box because you can’t trust the ones already there.

    Premier Icon DavidB
    Free Member

    OK, fair point – it should be easy. But its equally important to vote for most people. Is getting ID that hard ?

    This was impossible for my Dad when ill in a care home as others have mentioned. He would have lost his vote on leaving. He would have voted Tory though. But still it’s a disgrace that it is on any kind of priority list.

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    Why is it so hard to spread facts with the same success?

    Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.

    Plenty of people on the remain side of Brexit are wondering why what they saw as a clear cut facts based discussion was lost….

    The issue is really how do we enable people to cut though the crap on Facebook

    Premier Icon Murray
    Full Member

    Another measure – “Britons living abroad for more than 15 years to be given right to vote”
    Overseas votes

    This group is likely to be older and more likely to vote Conservative

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Full Member

    I thought the gammony types thought the concept of ID cards was a bit foreign?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    It is important to make voting simple, but it should still carry some weight and formality, I still don’t see why asking for ID is not a good idea.

    Because it’s not necessary, and may disenfranchise some people.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    This has kicked off on the local “Spotted” FB group.

    Lots of people saying “I don’t have a problem with having to gave an ID card, I already have etc”

    A couple of us saying “This isn’t about compulsory ID cards, this is about stopping people voting for not having ID they don’t need to have “

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Free Member

    IMHO I think trying to dress it up as anything more than Voter Suppression is laughable really.

    Voter fraud is almost unheard of, and why wouldn’t it be? Even a close contest in politics usually comes down to a few hundred votes, not 2 or 3, if you really wanted to use fraud to affect a result you’d have to do it on such a scale it would be very difficult not to be caught, frankly it’s fair easier to use the likes of Cambridge Analytica and call it legal.

    If this passes, and well, unless some Tory backbenchers grown a spine, it will, who’s affected most? The young and the poor. It will also affect working people, I voted along with millions of others last week. When I arrived at the polling station there was a HUGE queue, or rather a reasonable queue that looked huge because of SD, lots of people turned away with a ‘sod that’ look about them. ID checks take time, slow the process, make the queues longer.

    I mean, hellfire Voter ID was a Donald Trump key policy, that alone should make it a ‘bad idea’ by default unless proved otherwise.

    Premier Icon p7eaven
    Free Member

    Brexit/Brexiters and Trumpism have a lot off crossover and will be influential for a long time to come.

    Premier Icon soobalias
    Free Member

    recommendation: everyone must have photo id to vote, STW up in arms at the injustice….
    recommendation: everyone must have new smart phone app to track location and all personal interactions, potentially resulting in Stay at Home order, STW laps it up and accuses anyone not onboard of being a tax dodging drug dealer.

    i would say you cant make this stuff up….. oh.

    Premier Icon finbar
    Free Member

    Another measure – “Britons living abroad for more than 15 years to be given right to vote”
    Overseas votes

    This group is likely to be older and more likely to vote Conservative

    Quite. They also won’t have direct experience of how sh*t things have really got here.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    recommendation: everyone must have photo id to vote, STW up in arms at the injustice….
    recommendation: everyone must have new smart phone app to track location and all personal interactions, potentially resulting in Stay at Home order, STW laps it up and accuses anyone not onboard of being a tax dodging drug dealer.

    i would say you cant make this stuff up….. oh.

    You’ve totally missed the point. This proposal isn’t about introducing ID cards to vote.

    Premier Icon p7eaven
    Free Member

    i would say you cant make this stuff up

    except…

    …you just did 😉

    Also, your strawman may respond:

    Then why conflate (involuntary) social injustice – with (voluntary) social media/sports apps?

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