Ron Clarke

The runners amongst us may be interested in this. It mirrors what I and my club mates used to do 20+ years ago and although for me it was at a lower intensity (not so for some of my 62 min half marathon team mates) the competitive multi paced and less analytical approach to training was hard, enjoyable, competitive and effective.
Just thought I would share.

Our long Sunday runs may have been reasonably slow (around 5 minute mile pace)

😯

When I was a bit younger and fitter, I never did the long slow stuff, I just didn’t have the time. Any run I did was flat out, whether it was 60 seconds or 10 miles. Maybe if you have the time to do the long slow stuff it works, but most people don’t. Who know how quick I would have been if I’d done the slow stuff, but I’m happy with the results I got.

Our long Sunday runs may have been reasonably slow (around 5 minute mile pace)

Many top distance runners train daily around this speed (IME a touch slower) but read about Hutchins/Ovett etc and 50 minute 10 milers were pretty commonplace.
Ron Clarke was an exceptional athlete and one the best 10,000m runners of his day. I read an article years ago where he claimed he seldom ran slower.

Needs, more commas.
Interesting stuff nonetheless.

Maybe if you have the time to do the long slow stuff it works,

I think the point is that “slow” is relative and the term is misused today to denote “lack of effort”

I think the point is that “slow” is relative and the term is misused today to denote “lack of effort”

Good point.
Maybe I’m just too old, but there is the view that if it doesn’t hurt, it’s not doing any good.
I’m sure it’s not as simple as that, but I never ‘enjoyed’ a long, slow run. I always enjoyed running against a clock, even on training runs.

Interesting article, although I’m not sure how applicable it is to us amateur runners with full time jobs – there’s no way I can fit this kind of training in: “… we covered 16 to 20 kilometres each evening most, if not every week day, 50 or so weeks in the years”.

I also think most elite athletes do interval training, despite Ron Clarke’s opinion that it’s not very helpful.

I think the point is that “slow” is relative and the term is misused today to denote “lack of effort”

Definitely this, though.

Maybe I’m just too old, but there is the view that if it doesn’t hurt, it’s not doing any good.

Th point bout long and slow is that it is meant to hurt (or rather be a challenge). If it’s too easy then go LONGER not faster. So by definition if you are doing 20 miles as fast as you can it should still be slow relative to your 5k.

If you find 20 miles slow is too easy then maybe do 40 🙂 probably harder to do on foot than on a bike though. Having done long slow on the bike with a power meter (one situation where a power meter is very useful) I can report that a power that is very easy in the first hour is a pretty big effort in the 5th hour when ridden constantly. Long and slow does not mean easy!

“I always enjoyed running against a clock, even on training runs.”

No reason why long slow would not involve a clock. Try to maintain X min miles for the whole 20 miles.

Th point bout long and slow is that it is meant to hurt (or rather be a challenge). If it’s too easy then go LONGER not faster. So by definition if you are doing 20 miles as fast as you can it…

…should be in a race. Running that distance at race pace in training is a daft thing to do for nearly everyone, nearly all the time.

Equally true now in the RW-cosseted-don’t-try-too-hard-stay-in-the-imaginary-fat-burning-zone 21st Century as it was in the 70/80s heydays, days when Charlie Spedding – holder of the English marathon record for almost 30 years – ‘wasn’t even the fastest runner in his club’. Enjoy your running 🙂

If it’s too easy then go LONGER not faster. So by definition if you are doing 20 miles as fast as you can it should still be slow relative to your 5k.

It should never be too far away. If you are running a 15 min 5k your Sunday run would likely be no longer then 15 maybe less if you are focusing on 5-10km. I would suggest you should be running around 6 to 6:30 miling. No point in extending your Sunday run to simply run more slow miles.
Some of now club mates do see the Sunday as almost a day off training the pace is so pedestrian and as much as I enjoy company I tend to go out earlier and run on my own. Best results come from keeping them as a long but training “focused” session as appose to simply chatting for a couple of hours. You should feel tired after them.

All that running.
And he still managed to write 67 series of Last Of The Summer Wine.

Wot a guy…….

Thanks for posting, agree with a very large amount of that thinking, especially the group training ethos, less so the lack of intervals.

Thread hijack – Swedish Chef.. you’re in Southern Sweden somewhere aren’t you?

Bear in mind he was racing every few days under distance plus his running was punctuated with hard accelerations and mini races. This is effectively interval training by another name and simply without the rest.
From my own experience most of our running was done at a variable pace. Starting slowly with faster efforts in the middle to crest hills or long sections that allow the group to fan out across the road etc and race each other then a fast last mile or so.
I think he is saying that interval training (of which I am a fan) is a bit false in that it doesnt prepare effectively for the stress of racing but the alternative should not be easy/steady running but another very intense workout.

Surfer, surely most sensible training plans now include two tempo runs (or a tempo and a race) and an interval session every week… do you think you’d be better off replacing the interval with another tempo run?

Göteborg area, very near Landvetter airport.

Speaking from the bike point of view – you can get the effect of interval training in a normal ride if you have the right ride. For example I used to have a mostly flat 10 odd mile home commute with a series of sharp hills at the end of increasing duration. I just took it reasonably steady and consistent, and killed myself on the final climbs. Very effective and it sounds like what Surfer is talking about.

However if you don’t have that kind of situation then you’ll need to create it, ie with intervals. Same thing though really.

Very effective and it sounds like what Surfer is talking about.

I suppose so but this type of training also has the advantage of being enjoyable. Few people (myself included) enjoy long intervals and I have a good friend who ran 14:30 for 5k as a V40! He hated intervals but every Monday we would run a 10 miler that started at around 6 min miling but ended well under 5.
Not doing intervals is a choice but if you want to achieve then you have to replace it with something similarly taxing, you cant cop out!
Of course it depends on what you enjoy and what training partners you have available, there are a number of ways to skin a cat and Zatopek ran nothing but intervals twice a day and was one of the greatest distance runners of all time.
As an aside he and Clarke were friends and Zatopek gifted Clarke with one of his Olympic Gold medals.

Further aside, you might enjoy this on Zatopek from last month surfer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/greatlives
Ron Clarke and the medal story get a mention.

Thanks Stever!

suppose so but this type of training also has the advantage of being enjoyable

Oh yeh absolutely!

I think John L Parker nails it’s simply. Run you short runs hard (z4 Karvonen) and your long runs slow (z2). Avoid the middle ground.

After many years of triathlon I got bored with the standard progression through the distances and the rising cost, so started ultras and other unusual endurance events. Ran several 50 milers and a couple of 100 XC which were really mental more than physical challenges. But there was a mistake in that you lose your speed endurance badly. I struggle to run short hard runs now eg 40 mins at 170+ and bizarely can run hills but hate long steady flats.

Done three XC runs (2 x 60m and today just 45) and a bike ride this week and shocked by the lack of basic speed. Nothing in the legs at all.

Time for some short, hard stuff and hill intervals. Oh and some weight loss!