• This topic has 36 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 2 days ago by P-Jay.
Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • Vehicle ownership – how should I go about it?
  • Premier Icon 2tyred
    Full Member

    I thought this would be simple!

    Need to replace the bike hauler. Either van or van-based car. Got a couple of options in mind.

    What I can’t decide is the approach to take with finance. I’ve got about 10k cash sitting. I don’t really like owing money on anything other than the mortgage.

    Tend to run cars into the ground, I’m not fussy at all about body or interior getting scratched etc. Bikes and kit in and out all the time, frequently filthy. I’m not (car) mechanically-minded.

    Both vehicles similar age & mileage. One desirable, one not so much.

    Option 1 I could buy outright for 10k. Resale value after 4 years probably not much. Would likely run into the ground and expect to get 5-6 years out of it.

    Option 2 probably 25-30k. Resale value after 4 years high.

    Is one option head and shoulders above the other? My instinct is Option 1 – I own it on day 1 and don’t have to be precious about the condition – but is that foolish?

    Not owned many cars so not much experience to draw on. Opinions and advice welcome!

    Premier Icon robbie
    Free Member

    Option 1 but don’t spend the full 10k. maybe keep 3k for repairs and servicing etc.

    Premier Icon steveh
    Full Member

    Option 2 something like a transporter? If so you’d be buying at a very strong poing in the van market. Prices across the board are higher than ever, how long it will last no one knows.

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    I’d personally expect to get a lot more than 5 years out of a 10k car – that’s 3 year old, low milage berlingo money – I would expect to get another 10 years at least out of something like that.

    I’d spend 5k on a 7 year old/80k miles berlingo (or similar) and bung the rest on a bike. job jobbed.

    Premier Icon martymac
    Full Member

    I buy my cars and run them pretty much into the ground, once they become banger if something big goes they get scrapped.
    This frees me from the worry of other people opening their doors into me etc.
    This works for me and ends up being pretty cheap, as cars go.
    But, I’m not a brand or reg plate snob, I genuinely wouldn’t care about driving a 15yo car.
    You will easily get a decent car for 10k, avoid anything ‘upmarket’ and go Japanese or korean.
    Other opinions are available, ymmv, etc etc.

    Premier Icon captmorgan
    Free Member

    I’ve posted this before but…

    For not much more than your £10K you’ll get a new Dacia, there’s a bunch of folk over on PH with them and seems to be universally liked.

    Might be worth considering
    https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=47&t=1900473

    Premier Icon andrewh
    Free Member

    I own it on day 1 and don’t have to be precious about the condition

    That. People with all these finance plans seem to get so precious and strsssy about their cars.
    I look after mine mechanically but couldn’t give a stuff about the cosmetics, seems to remove a massive of stress compared to those who fret over every little scratch

    Premier Icon Matt_SS_xc
    Full Member

    Option 2.
    Nicer to drive / travel in
    No concerns about a big garage bill anytime

    Premier Icon petrieboy
    Free Member

    My view has always been buy cars at 3 or 4 years old either direct from a leasing company (direct or auction) or privately. Reason being is the reason for sale is just that the cars reached 36 or 48 months old – not that there’s anything wrong with it. Buying a car at any other age and the chances that it’s for sale due to a fault increases massively

    Premier Icon b230ftw
    Full Member

    Option 1 I could buy outright for 10k. Resale value after 4 years probably not much. Would likely run into the ground and expect to get 5-6 years out of it.

    This option BUT look after the bloody thing instead. I don’t get this “run into the ground” nonsense. Cars fail if you don’t look after them properly. The simple fact is that most people who adopt the run into the ground thing have their heads turned by the latest motoring fashion or a newer model at the dealers. The they stop looking after the car they once enjoyed as it’s boring now compared to the shiny new toys their bored minds have become transfixed by.

    I’m sick of the throwaway nature of cars nowadays. Such a waste.

    Premier Icon 2tyred
    Full Member

    By ‘run into the ground’ I mean keep it going until the repair bills get daft. Current bike hauler is an 09 plate, reached 170k which doesn’t feel throwaway to me.

    I guess I’m wondering if one approach makes more obvious sense than the other. I’m naturally at the thrifty-tightwad end of the scale so option 1 is my natural inclination but struggling to come up with a like-for-like comparison.

    Premier Icon Olly
    Free Member

    Plenty of new new cars spend ages in the garage getting fixed. Under warranty of course, but still a pain in the arse. I’ve recent bought a transit and have been reading about ford scrapping vans with 20k on them because the engines have died and it’s not worth their money to fix them under warranty.
    A £10k car has had it’s issues shaken out of it for you, but still plenty young.

    On the flip side, My dad bought his first new new car in 2010, aged 60. A new fangled skoda yeti. Still got it, 140k on it,not a moment’s trouble. 11 years is pretty good going I would say!

    Premier Icon K
    Free Member

    Option 1 but keep it for 10 years at least unless you have brought badly then sell it quick but don’t get rid of it because you have a repair bill.

    Premier Icon brads
    Full Member

    You think that option 2 will leave you with a valuable car afterwards ?

    You’ll lose a lot more than your £10k on it for sure.

    If it’s a bike hauling tool go option 1. I bought an XC70 fully loaded with options for £10k

    It was 8yrs old and 89k miles. It feels and drives like a £50k car.

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    This option BUT look after the bloody thing instead. I don’t get this “run into the ground” nonsense. Cars fail if you don’t look after them properly.

    old cars are not worth much money and fixing them is expensive when they go wrong. Its therefore not worth spending money keeping on top of every last thing because they’ll still be worthless at the end of the day.

    case in point – bought my last car (vauxhall signum) on 99,000 miles for £1500 (7 years old). Stuck another 70,000 miles on it over 7 years and sold it for £450, as an absolute shed. Scrap value was £300, it had 8 months MOT.

    for the last 5 of those years I did the absolute bare minimum – 3 oil and filter changes, and threw a bottle of steel seal in it when the head gasket went – total cost is around £100 for all maintenance, and very little in the way of resources used.

    looking after it ‘properly’ would have involved (off the top of my head) 3 minor services (£250 each), 2 major services (£350 each), 1 cambelt change (£500) one new head gasket and skim – because despite what you think, maintenance doesn’t cure those (£800) – one new rocker cover gasket and fitting to cure the minor leak (£400), new shocks all round (£500), 3 lots of bodywork fixing/touching up (£200 a pop), head lining replaced (£400), and a new clutch (£700).

    so that’s £5350 instead of £100 on maintenance, the end result would have been a really nice old vauxhall on 170,000 miles, worth maybe £600 (at a push) – which would still have been scrapped by the next owner the next time something expensive went wrong. at the same time its been through an extra 3 oil filters, 5 air filters, 2 cabin filters, 12l more oil, 20l more coolant, 1 head gasket, 1 rocker cover gasket, 4 new shocks, a bunch of paint a clutch and a head liner – that seems a fairly wasteful, inefficient way of running a car. Running old rubbish cars into the ground with minimal maintenance is an entirely sensible way of dealing with them both from an economical perspective and a ecological one

    Premier Icon nstpaul
    Free Member

    Number 1.

    I paid the equivalence of 7 months monthly ‘rentals’ on my ex fancy brand new BMW for a second hand BMW that does exactly the same job. If I throw it away after 8 months I’ve saved money. I’m done with wasting money just to rent something.
    You haven’t said how the shortfall for the more expensive option is going to be arranged? PCP, loan?

    Premier Icon duncancallum
    Full Member

    Option 1 all day long.

    I reckon at 5k you could buy something that would last 10yrs easy

    Premier Icon RustyNissanPrairie
    Full Member

    I’m sick of the throwaway nature of cars nowadays. Such a waste.

    Our trusty V70 having a 200k mile makeover, owned for 150k of those miles.

    New suspension, all bushes/balljoints, CV’s, wheels refurbished, steering rack resealed, bumpers painted, arch liners out and epoxy inner arches. Same with the back end.
    Will be good for another 200k+ miles.

    It’s probably worth book price of £500 but I have the space, tools, skills and time so why not?


    Premier Icon 40mpg
    Full Member

    Option 1

    Something in the back of my mind is running and resale costs of a long term diesel / petrol purchase if there’s decentivisation to push people to electric in coming years. Maybe not 3-4 years but 6-8 much more likely.

    Then you’re stuck with an unattractive vehicle you can’t get rid of, and much higher fuel and tax costs.

    Premier Icon uwe-r
    Free Member

    Option 3. Same as option 1 but take out a loan to bump the budget to £15k. Buy a better car but still 2 or 3 years old and still run it into the ground. You will spend a lot of your time in that car and nicer cars are genuinely nicer to use. You wont regret a long term investment in something quality that you will use regularly.

    Premier Icon mrhoppy
    Full Member

    If so you’d be buying at a very strong poing in the van market. Prices across the board are higher than ever, how long it will last no one knows.

    I keep seeing this posted at the moment and I’m just not sure it holds up, it’s not across the board. Admittedly we sold our motorhome for about £1k less than we bought it for 5 years back but the replacement van we’ve bought we got 1/3rd off retail without trying.

    Premier Icon andy4d
    Full Member

    We sort of do both but pay over 3 years, my car is sort of option 2 , my wifes is sort of option 1.

    When we looked at the rough sums option 2 is way dearer but costs are fixed for 3 years (services included and a warranty) and limited chance of brakedowns which suits us. Ballpark PCP figures (in euros) cost new €33k less trade in of €5k so €28k, final payment was €13k just traded it in at €23k! Cost about €4.5 k per year all in except fuel/insurance. A lot of money! Previous PCPs left me €5K equity in the car (got a great deal on this one though)

    Wifes car was €7k or about €200pm and will be worth about €3k? in 3 more years. Plus it’s needed 4 tyres, battery, servicing each year and will need pads/discs and timing belt at next service so about €2k in bits over the years, more. So that’s about €3/3.5k per year depending on repairs. And about €3k in equity in 3 years time.

    So our new car costs us over €100 a month more over our used one.

    I wish I could cycle for work😐

    Premier Icon IHN
    Full Member

    Option 1, every time, but then as others have said I’m no car/van snob. Keep it serviced and, barring particularly bad luck, it’ll still be serving you well in ten years time.

    (Owner of a 100k, 55plate Mazda and 150k, 54plate T5, they’ll both be kept until they die)

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    Option 3. Same as option 1 but take out a loan to bump the budget to £15k. Buy a better car but still 2 or 3 years old and still run it into the ground. You will spend a lot of your time in that car and nicer cars are genuinely nicer to use. You wont regret a long term investment in something quality that you will use regularly.

    I’m not convinced, a 15 year old banger was someone elses £15k car not so long ago. They just paid £14.5k more for the privelage of putting the first few stains in the floor carpets.

    It’s still got the same seats,s suspension and wheels as it had when new.

    But then as long as the radio works I’m not fussed about toys. The hire car had “lane keeping assisant”, which meant either the car shouted at you driving through the roadworks or you had a big orange warning light telling you it was switched off.

    limited chance of brakedowns which suits us

    Not convinced by that either, yes my knackered Berlingo has left me stranded (the plastic end of the clutch cable went), but then driving up and down the motorway every week I’m sure I see more BMW, Audis and Rangerovers on the hard shoulder than anything else? But then they might be a self-selecting sample being thrashed up the fast lane and going pop.

    Premier Icon uwe-r
    Free Member

    Everything is relative. You don’t have to be a petrol head or brand snob to appreciate quality. If you are going to put 100k miles into a car you are going spend a lot of time using it and sitting in it. You wouldn’t buy a cheap nasty sofa or put up with a nasty smelly mattress. You can have nicer / cleaner / newer things as well as things that are better from a performance / engineering perspective and there is obviously a premium to pay for all of it. I’m into bangernomics at heart but I prefer to run my bangers from a higher starting point, I value the quality of a Merc over a Renault and would pay £15k for the former over a similar £10k Renault and over the course of 100k miles i would not regret it.

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    I value the quality of a Merc over a Renault

    you’re aware that a lot of smaller mercs use renault engines, right?

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Full Member

    OP doesn’t seem well suited to Option 2, I’m assuming from your post you don’t seem to have any interest in the car per-se, won’t get any enjoyment out of nicer car, are just interested in a better financial outcome by buyer a nicer car as it may be worth more down the road?

    If that’s all true then it’s option 1 every time for you.

    There are very, very few cars that are that desirable they can beat the depreciation curve of a cheaper one. They’re usually so much more to buy in the first place it negates it.

    Also, as a rule of thumb, the more desirable a car, the higher the running costs.

    If I were you, I’d look for something on budget with reasonably running costs and reliability. Most cars are generally reliable these days, generally will never rust, the engines can run pretty much forever, they certainly don’t wear out like they used to, as long as you give them the usual maintenance. It’s typically auxiliary systems that fail, and the more complex the car, the more likely to have something that will fail and cost thousands to replace.

    There’s really no need to “run anything into the ground” although some people do through choice. If the MOT tester, or annual service tells you the brakes are on their way, have them fixed, if the wheel bearings are worn, have them fixed, most cars that are “mechanically written off” are because owners don’t maintain them until it’s half a dozen or more faults that come “all at once” when in reality, it’s taken a few years to accumulate them until one or more won’t pass an MOT or make it undrivable and the cost to fix them all is more than a newer car.

    £10k is a lot of money, I’m sure some people think it’s chicken feed when it comes to cars, but it still takes a long time to save that sort of money up. Spend carefully, keep on top of the little jobs before they become big jobs and there’s no reason why a £10k car won’t last 10 years easy.

    Premier Icon uwe-r
    Free Member

    you’re aware that a lot of smaller mercs use renault engines, right?

    Yes – but as i said, its the full package that will be better in a high quality car. I had a Renault and it was awful, traded it in at 80k miles as so much was going wrong with it. The engine was fine – but the interior was degrading rapidly, steering wheel was a nasty plastic that was going sticky, the electric windows broke, the seats were nasty, it just didn’t age well because it was a cheap car to start with. I now have a Merc that is currently on 105k miles and its fine, its still a nice car to drive. I can see myself doing another 50k easily before even thinking about changing.

    Premier Icon reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    I don’t really like owing money on anything other than the mortgage.

    Then buy using cash, option 1. It will annoy you seeing a big lump of metal on the drive/street knowing you still have to pay for it, especially if you don’t particularly like it or it’s just thrown a bill at you. Was in that position with my last car and I found myself regularly counting down the day to the last payment so that I could start planning how to replace it.

    The simple fact is that most people who adopt the run into the ground thing have their heads turned by the latest motoring fashion or a newer model at the dealers. The they stop looking after the car they once enjoyed as it’s boring now compared to the shiny new toys their bored minds have become transfixed by.

    I have had friends and family telling me I should get rid of my car as it’s now old (just turned 8) and high mileage (113k). I cant see why as it does everything I want it to do for little outlay and has yet to have anything fail on it. I’ve even done some preventative maintenance on it over lockdown to make it keep on it’s dependability (new battery, fresh fluids all-round) and a bit of freshening up on other bits like a full interior clean (seats out, trim lifted in places) to the point it looks like new. It looks in better condition than some 3 year old cars that have done far less miles.

    old cars are not worth much money and fixing them is expensive when they go wrong. Its therefore not worth spending money keeping on top of every last thing because they’ll still be worthless at the end of the day.

    It’s not the cost of the repair that you need to worry about, it’s the cost to replace the car. If my current car costs less than £1k in repairs every year then it’s still far cheaper than buying a replacement. Obviously it’s stupid to throw a grand at a car that is full of rot or the engine is knackered but if the fundamentals are fine then spending on a new clutch, brakes and dampers in one hit is worthwhile if it gets you another 2-3 years use.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    old cars are not worth much money and fixing them is expensive when they go wrong. Its therefore not worth spending money keeping on top of every last thing because they’ll still be worthless at the end of the day

    But compared to depreciation or loan costs it’s still cheaper to keep on top of it.

    Premier Icon 2tyred
    Full Member

    Thanks all, this is much appreciated. I reckon option 1 definitely suits me better, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something really obvious!

    I’m only interested in whatever I get being functional, ‘driving experience’ isn’t really something I think about. Current bike-hauler’s a complete shitbox but easily lugs 8 bikes plus people and kit around. Or at least it used to. *sob*

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    That. People with all these finance plans seem to get so precious and strsssy about their cars.

    I’ve got an i3 that I rent and I own a 10 year old 3 Series. I “stress” (that’s a bit strong, care is better) about the one I own a lot more than the other. I do look after my car though so I expect 2 years in when I give it back it will still be more or less spotless.

    I haven’t read it all but has anyone mentioned annual mileage, that would be a big factor in what I was deciding to buy.

    Premier Icon trail_rat
    Free Member

    for the last 5 of those years I did the absolute bare minimum – 3 oil and filter changes, and threw a bottle of steel seal in it when the head gasket went – total cost is around £100 for all maintenance, and very little in the way of resources used.

    looking after it ‘properly’ would have involved (off the top of my head) 3 minor services (£250 each), 2 major services (£350 each), 1 cambelt change (£500) one new head gasket and skim – because despite what you think, maintenance doesn’t cure those (£800) – one new rocker cover gasket and fitting to cure the minor leak (£400), new shocks all round (£500), 3 lots of bodywork fixing/touching up (£200 a pop), head lining replaced (£400), and a new clutch (£700

    From one extreme to the other for effect I guess. There is another option and that is to look after the mechanicals what you had was simply a ticking time bomb. I recall a friend having a similar attitude towards his leaky radiator also in avauxhall actually …. Result was we were sat at the side of the motorway by Kinross waiting on recovery after a cloud of steam and a siezed engine.

    Long as it’s not rotten I’ll do mechanical repairs that are essential to the vehicle being reliable or preventing it becoming a liability.

    So anything power train or suspension. Fixing a busted window regulator -not so much.

    But right up to the day I sold them I’d have jumped in any of my cars and driven to the other end of the country with confidence. It helps by not having to pay some of those pants pulled down costs your quoting and in some ways bangernomics unless you can live with an element of liability in your car makes no sense if your paying. A man .

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Full Member

    There are mostly two winners when leasing a car – the Finance company and your Ego.

    Having started the route of PCP, twice I got off the bandwagon with the following advice; make a considered opinion on the car that suites your circumstances; buy quality; buy on the down slope of the bell curve; look after it.

    Going through the same process purchasing a new second hand car for Mrs K right now. We know what we want, are saving and in time will find a vehicle to buy as a cash purchase.

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    There is another option and that is to look after the mechanicals what you had was simply a ticking time bomb.

    even if I’d looked after the mechanicals perfectly, the head gasket would have gone, and fixing it properly would have written off the car, due to the low value. none of the other skimped maintenance (with the exception of the cambelt) increased the risk of being left on the side of the road – older oil works fine, it just accelerates wear a tiny bit (which might leave you with piston slap in an extreme scenario, but the cars still drivable) – other non-replaced parts such as filters might make the performance a touch worse but nothing more.

    Bangernomics at its best. If labour was cheaper or cars worth more it’d be a different story, but when the value of a car is ~5 hours labour at a garage, its hard to justify spending lots on maintenance that doesn’t really do much (given where the car is at in its lifespan)

    Premier Icon b230ftw
    Full Member

    Our trusty V70 having a 200k mile makeover, owned for 150k of those miles.

    New suspension, all bushes/balljoints, CV’s, wheels refurbished, steering rack resealed, bumpers painted, arch liners out and epoxy inner arches. Same with the back end.
    Will be good for another 200k+ miles.

    It’s probably worth book price of £500 but I have the space, tools, skills and time so why not?

    My Volvo (2nd car, have a work car too) cost me £400 and isn’t a new shiny one like yours 😉😂). However I’ve had it 5 years now, spent around £1500 on it and it’s worth about £2500 now even though it’s on 188k miles. Last 3 MOTs passed with no advisories……

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Full Member

    People with all these finance plans seem to get so precious and stresssy about their cars.
    I look after mine mechanically but couldn’t give a stuff about the cosmetics, seems to remove a massive of stress compared to those who fret over every little scratch

    This is definitely a thing. My current car is on a PCP, this is the first time I’ve ever leased a car or bought anything so expensive that didn’t have a postcode.

    If you lease a car you’re responsible for it’s condition, small scratches, stone chips are all part of life and are covered under ‘fair wear and tear’ although some people do worry about them come ‘give it back day’, but dents and other damage are your responsibility. I do find myself caring more about it’s condition than I did any of my company cars, because no one wants to pay a fortune to give something back, the old “paid them to take it away”.

    Generally though, it’s mileage that will screw you more than condition, if anyone is thinking of leasing a car, really, really don’t fool yourself that you only do 5k miles a year if you don’t just to make something a little cheaper a month, or heaven forbid make the unaffordable, affordable, it’ll only end in tears. That 8p a mile really starts to kick you in the balls over a couple of years.

    Mostly though I care about it, because when I decided to lease it, I accepted it was going to be expensive, but I wanted a really nice car, and what’s the point of that if you allow it to get a bit rough? Will it continue to ‘bring joy’ and be worth the hundreds a month you spend on it?

    If you’ve no real interest in cars, if it’s just 4 wheels and a seat to get you to work, the shops, trail head etc then don’t spend hundreds a month to lease a ‘nice’ car, if it’s not going to make you happy.

    Anyway, my tip as a former finance seller, if you’re worried about hand-back charges, 1) Be honest about your mileage, it’s not hard to work out and be honest with yourself. 2) Lease a 2 or 3 year old car, most franchise dealers will resell a 2-3 year old car so if you lease a new car, they will care a lot more about it when you return it after 2-3 years as it’s stock, if it’s 5-6 years old they’ll stick it out the back and it’ll be sent of to auction dirt and all, it’s not 100% certain they’ll ignore mileage or kerbed wheels etc, but far more likely. 3) if you’re in serious trouble, it’s got a bit dent in the arse, it’s 20k miles over your allowance and you’ve never serviced it, firstly, have a word with yourself, secondly VT it, it’s not great, it’s not a get out of jail free thing, but it’s better than being asked for £5k which they WILL enforce.

Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.