If that’s not imposing your beliefs on someone I don’t know what is!

Have to admit, never knowingly been to a veggie restaurant and double checked the menu.

But on a personal front, when meat eaters come round for a meal. We cook them a meal with meat in.

However, the above is easy as my decision to not eat meat has very little to do with ethics.

hmmm chips

Dreaming of a chippy bacon and egg butty….. hmmmmmm

Them darn pigs, its a weakness

I mean you go to any other restaurant then they cater for veggies!

Utter bollocks

I don’t understand your point? Animals turn their food into protein very inefficiently – I think it’s something like 10:1. Land used for raising animals or growing grain could also usually be used for growing other crops – which will be much more efficient than producing meat.

But animals CAN turn grass into protein. We can’t do that. I’ve heard the statistic that you get 7x more calories if you simply eat the grain than if you turn it into meat – but we can’t live on just grain. Yields per acre for legumes are probably a lot lower than wheat, I’d imagine, and it may be more intensive to grow and harvest. Also, how much land is actually suitable for beans? We can’t even grow lentils in this country commercially, can we? Not sure.

I’m just trying to look behind the over-used quotes, since I am sure they don’t tell the whole story.

I’m not sure how much UK lamb actually comes from hill sheep farming – most of it round here seems to be on improved pasture.

Round here, in Wales, there’s a lot of upland sheep farming. I try and buy Welsh lamb.

Mmmm, chips. I’ll have mine cooked in animal fat please.

The chippy where i grew up used to fry their chips in lard…best chips i’ve ever had.

What I want to know us why is there no meat option at a vegetarian restaurant!

I was similarly outraged at the menu of my local italian restaurant: can a man not order a curry anywhere he likes any more?!

The chippy where i grew up used to fry their chips in lard…best chips i’ve ever had.

I ate some lardy chips by accident recently. They tasted like the smell of an average McDonalds. Bloody awful it was. I will however admit that chips which are cooked in the same oil as fish taste very nice.

Wow. Just wow.

OP trolling or being obtuse for another reason? Just so you know, cheesy, your shockingly terrible ‘counter-argument’ in no way discounts the equally terrible ‘argument’ you attempt to counter. Really bad – you should be very ashamed.

Molgrips – what the wobbly blue hell are you rambling on about? Plenty non-meat protein in the veg world. Farming animals for meat is far less efficient in resources and output than farming crops. You do know that an awful lot of crops go to feed the animals don’t you? Even more when the pastures have been flooded and grass has been unavailable.

Here is a BIG figure from the USA:

Field corn (also known as dent corn or simply, corn) occupies the majority of the corn acres in the United States, with 93.6 million acres planted in 2007 and 86.0 million acres in 2008. Of the 14.4 billion bushels produced in the United States in 2007, 42% went to animal feed, 22% to produce ethanol, 17% to export, 9% for domestic food uses, and 10% surplus.

A bushel is ~35 litres volume.
If half of that land were given over to not feeding animals for meat, a lot of world hunger could be stopped. Now.

Loathed to reference Wiki, but this has several studies linked, so good as a primer to ‘look behind’ things:
Environmental_impact_of_meat_production

Molgrips – what the wobbly blue hell are you rambling on about? Plenty non-meat protein in the veg world.

Don’t get angry, I’m just interested in the facts behind the soundbites.

I know there are non-meat protein crops, I just want to clear up the figures. I’ve read comparisons of wheat vs meat for land use, but not legumes or other protein crops.

You do know that an awful lot of crops go to feed the animals don’t you?

In some cases more than others, but yes of course. I’m wondering if that’s actually necessary. I’m not anti veggie, I’m just in search of more information.

I have a suspicion that the figures that people quote are cherry picked to make meat sound as bad as possible. I think that some meat could be sustainably produced, and I’m sure that agricultural meat rearing practices are nothing like as efficient as they ought to be.

I’ve given you some.
You need about 56 grams of protein a day. A glass of milk, 3oz of meat/fish, some beans and some yogurt would give you that.

If we reduced the meat we eat and it went back to being something ‘special’, we’d be healthier and there would be more land available to grow crops for humans (including the poor ones who can’t afford the western lust for meat) and alleviate many of the problems that poverty and climate chnge bring. As former ‘developing nations’ grow, many increase their desire for meat, putting further strain on world food production.

I’m sure that agricultural meat rearing practices are nothing like as efficient as they ought to be.

have a look at some of the American feedlot methods. Cattle on concrete, fed (genetically tweaked) corn, pumped full of preventative medical products, hormone enhanced. Very efficient indeed, not very natural at all. Mono-culture farming is also terrible environmentally, so what efficiency are you convinced isn’t being achieved and to what gain?

You need about 56 grams of protein a day. A glass of milk, 3oz of meat/fish, some beans and some yogurt would give you that. explosive diarrhea

have a look at some of the American feedlot methods

Seen it first hand, I totally agree.

I’ve also seen cattle on millions of square miles of semi-desert ekeing out a living.

Cattle on concrete, fed (genetically tweaked) corn, pumped full of preventative medical products, hormone enhanced. Very efficient indeed

I’m talking about people fed against land use or energy use. You already said it was NOT efficient in those terms. The farmers might call it efficient in terms of money in vs beef out though.

If we reduced the meat we eat and it went back to being something ‘special’, we’d be healthier and there would be more land available to grow crops for humans

Hard to argue that we don’t eat a lot more meat than we need to. I’m sure I could eat a lot less, and we’re probably way down on what a lot of people eat.

So is the argument not to totally get rid of animal farming, just reduce it somewhat?

So is the argument not to totally get rid of animal farming, just reduce it somewhat?

Probably, but that isn’t what badly-formed OP was about.

I mean you go to any other restaurant then they cater for veggies!

They really don’t. My OH is veggie and most places are ok these days but still there’s plenty where there’s no veggie option whatsoever, or one crap option. I cook mostly vege food at home and can make some really interesting, tasty stuff with a bit of effort, so there’s no excuse really.

I mean you go to any other restaurant then they cater for veggies!

Not naming names, but a certain bunkhouse at Afan is carp for veggies….
The veggie option was cheesy chips..
In the morning the eggs were in the tray with the sausages.
Simple things like that a lot of folks don’t think about but effectively they are reducing their customer base which can’t make good business sense.

It really is much, much better at pubs and restaurants these days but still you struggle to find much of a choice beyond pasta bake or lasagne..

The single veggie option at quite a ‘foodie’ pub near me was grilled beef tomato… Oh the ironing.

I once went cycle-touring in France with a friend who was a vegetarian. And who didn’t speak French.
After 2 weeks I was fed up with explaining to supercilious waiters that, no, he wasn’t ill and no, roast chicken wasn’t a valid vegetarian option. And he was pretty tired of a diet of chips and salad.

Mainland Europe can still be hilariously crap for vegetarians. Often people seem to think that having a few little bits of ham or bacon in something is fine, and will even say ‘no that’s not meat’. 😆

it’s getting a lot better these days though, but yeah still not great.

Often people seem to think that having a few little bits of ham or bacon in something is fine, and will even say ‘no that’s not meat’.

The funniest part is when they make pinching gesture with their finger and thumb and say ‘it’s only a little bit’.

TIp for vegans in France: Baguette crisp sandwiches. I survived nearly 4 weeks on these when I was young and never got bored of them, and still eat them today when I’m over there. Obviously the non-vegans I’m with think I’m mental but there’s just something about the combination of crisps and baguettes that make them ridiculously moreish.

There’s a curry place on the Perth Road in Dundee where the waiter refers to me and my girlfriends as “vegetables”

OP trolling or being obtuse for another reason? Just so you know, cheesy, your shockingly terrible ‘counter-argument’ in no way discounts the equally terrible ‘argument’ you attempt to counter. Really bad – you should be very ashamed.

Ashamed, me? Certainly not. I was pointing out the lunacy of the arguemnt from both sides by quoting something that someone has offered up as ‘fact’ and countering it with equally silly drivel. It was intended to start a lively light hearted debate, which it did, but now it’s all gone a bit serious!

I really don’t mind what people eat and whether it’s on moral grounds or not. What is stupid is when people start saying stupid things like ‘don’t eat meat and you’ll save 100 animals’, which is clearly nonsense and I think everyone agrees on this.

I’m don’t consider myself to be part of any food based group. Sometimes I eat meat, sometimes I don’t. I’d say that probably 60% + of all my meals are meat free.

piemonster – Member
There’s a curry place on the Perth Road in Dundee where the waiter refers to me and my girlfriends as “vegetables”

I remember dining in the finest restaurant in Edzell (Not much of a claim!) and the waitress offered us some rather tasty spinach to go with our meal.

“Would you like some, er……erm…..um…..some green stuff?”

But animals CAN turn grass into protein. We can’t do that. I’ve heard the statistic that you get 7x more calories if you simply eat the grain than if you turn it into meat – but we can’t live on just grain. Yields per acre for legumes are probably a lot lower than wheat, I’d imagine, and it may be more intensive to grow and harvest. Also, how much land is actually suitable for beans? We can’t even grow lentils in this country commercially, can we? Not sure.

I’m just trying to look behind the over-used quotes, since I am sure they don’t tell the whole story.

I still don’t see where you’re coming from. That eating meat is a more inefficient use of land must be true, or the laws of thermodynamics are wrong! All sorts of crops could be grown on land currently dedicated to meat production (either for grazing or producing animal feed).

If animals are raised solely on land unsuitable for any other agriculture then that’s a different story, but even hill sheep have their grazing supplemented with bought-in feed I think.

So is the argument not to totally get rid of animal farming, just reduce it somewhat?

From an environmental perspective, yes, but a lot of people don’t eat met because they think it’s wrong to raise and kill animals in order to eat them.

If you don’t object to eating dead animals, then I think it’s important to make best use of them – I do try to eat different cuts such as shin and neck, as well as offal – faggots and liver are particular favourites.

France is great for veggies, had a long discussion with a chef and waiter about the vegtableness of prawns and snails….

Well ransos, not all land is equal, as you say. With a bit of thought we could maximise meat production on land that’s not suitable for the crops we need to replace meat.

I always thought it silly that American settlers replaced buffalo herds with cattle ones, when buffalo are far better adapted to the environment. If we could ranch them instead of beef, I’m sure it’d have a lot less environmental impact. And they are delicious.

Does anyone know how well legumes grow in the UK? I don’t think we can produce lentils commercially can we? What kind of yield per hectare?

Well ransos, not all land is equal, as you say. With a bit of thought we could maximise meat production on land that’s not suitable for the crops we need to replace meat.

I see. I agree with you, but if we only raised animals on land unsuitable for crops, my guess is we would all be eating very little meat.

Does anyone know how well legumes grow in the UK? I don’t think we can produce lentils commercially can we? What kind of yield per hectare?

Lots of peas and beans grown in the UK. About 150K hectares with yields around 3.75 tonnes per hectare according to my FUW handbook. The vast majority of it is grown for animal feed 🙂

I see. I agree with you, but if we only raised animals on land unsuitable for crops, my guess is we would all be eating very little meat.

I think that’s how the argument goes, yes 🙂

3.75 tonnes per hectare from beans on average, in the UK, incidentally. I assume that’s raw weight, so enough protein for 60 people or thereabouts, assuming only one crop a year which I’m not sure about.

Given 70m people in the UK, we’d need about 1.2m hectares to meet our protein needs. We currently have about ten times that in animal pasture, according to wiki and my mental arithmetic.

The question is though how much of that pasture could be turned over to production of protein crops for humans?

This is also of interest:

In Wales, 80% of the farmland is designated “Less Favoured Area”, and in Scotland the figure is 84%. “Less Favoured Area” means land that produces a lower agricultural yield, typically upland moors and hill farms, which explains the tendency to focus on sheep and sometimes dairy farming.

Oh yeah, just thought of something. Eating beans on their own is hard work. You need to eat them in a dish. So what’s the impact of this? Those aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes etc etc must be coming from abroad, I’d have thought. They’re certainly not available all year round.

Meat on the other hand may end up being eaten with fewer extra vegetables.. ?

Just wondering.

The question is though how much of that pasture could be turned over to production of protein crops for humans?

Pass. You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else. For a start, we can disregard all imports, as well as home-produced free range chicken, pork and beef, plus any lamb reared on improved pasture.

Oh yeah, just thought of something. Eating beans on their own is hard work. You need to eat them in a dish. So what’s the impact of this? Those aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes etc etc must be coming from abroad, I’d have thought. They’re certainly not available all year round.

Not always a bad thing – for example tomatoes grown outdoors in Spain probably have a lower carbon impact than those grown in UK Greenhouses.

You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else

You’d have to included sustainably caught fish, and also farmed fish in that.

You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else

From my Boy’s Big Book of Agricultural Statistics (UK, 2012, in thousand hectares)

Total agricultural land 18349
Common rough grazing 1200
Sole right rough grazing 3981
Permanent grassland 5877
Total croppable area 6258
Other land on agricultural holdings 1166

So you could read that as meaning that 5877 hectares are used for grazing that could be used for arable, although not all permanent grassland is necessarily suitable. (My land counts as grassland rather than rough grazing, but you’d have an interesting time trying to grow crops on it).

Specifically protein providing crops, rather than wheat or cabbages or whtaever.

How much fish can we sustainably catch or farm?

cans of carcinogen-contaminated horsemeat-filled products pulled out of supermarkets

you should go and work on an arable farm and see what ends up on and in your beloved veggies, some seriously nasty chemicals, in impressive quantities.

I also worked on an organic veg farm, and always chuckle when people say you don’t need to wash organic carrots, ours were fertilised with the waste from an intensive chicken farm, including many rotting carcasses. Living the life of riley in the pile of chicken waste by the side of the field were hundreds of the biggest rats I’ve ever seen, which also just got scooped up into the spreader onto the carrots. Didn’t eat too much of that crop!

How much fish can we sustainably catch or farm?

depends on how many windfarms we build. 🙂

you should go and work on an arable farm and see what ends up on and in your beloved veggies, some seriously nasty chemicals, in impressive quantities.

Really? I’ve seen the test results from a large arable farm and pesticide residues are miniscule.