This is a great topic. I am all for live and let live, but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any. Vegans do. I admire them, but vegetarians are just picking the convenient morals without logically standing by what they believe in.. ( unless you are veggy cos of taste, or price and actually couldn’t give a monkeys about the cows)

But all I’m reading is that both parties are generally saying “live and let live”.

Nope, several meat-eaters being dicks about vegetarians AFAICS. Some of these things might seem amusing but I imagine they get slightly less funny when you’ve heard them 20 billion times.

This is a great topic. I am all for live and let live, but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any.

See?

Grum, you calling me a dick ? Selective quoting. I mentioned that I do respect vegans. They have a sound moral stance. Unless you can challenge my position with reason, which it appears you have sidelined in favour of insult? I won’t return thefavour. Why not just discuss? I’m listening. I merely pointed out that I don’t respect the moral position of vegetarians who state a moral case.

but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any

Go on then, I’m bored enough to hear you “flesh” this one out a bit*

* see what I did there?

Zilog: I really like separate tongs for veggies at a barby. I’m not fussed about veg food being contaminated by meat juice – I just don’t like the way I usually see the meat go on and off with the same tongs 😯

Well I think we need to define the difference between vegetarians and vegans first yeah? Vegans will not have anything to do with animal products, to varying degrees. Eg no meat, leather, dairy, eggs etc. So essentially avoiding expolitations of animals in any way. As a confirmed murdering canirvore, I actually admire and respect this position. To be honest they have a point. I’m too much of a hell bound tosser to go along with them, my own pleasure trumps veganism as far as I am concerned and frankly I deserve little moral respectfor being a meat eater. I accept this, and comethe revolution I fully expect tobe vilified for it. (I might have to run ir fight for my lufe, but it wont be posxible to secure my liberty by the use of morals, unless the opponents are thick)
In the mean time, the moralising (I say this, because many veggies dont moralise, they just dont eat meat because they are squeamish or dont like it but are happy to put up with eggs, dairy, leather etc because really they dont give a shit and are hellbound like me) vegetarian argument that eating meat is bad, but eggs milk and leather are ok, just does not hold any water, as animals are killed with as much abandon to make eggs, leather and dairy as they are for steak. So mral argument =zero.

I suppose after 15 years of treehugging, I ought to also read upn on and consider the effect of milk, particularly cow’s milk. ie methane and the how if everyone stopped eating cows overnight there would still be a demand for them as milk producers, and then you would have a lot of steers left over. So in the case of cows, the original post has some point as you’d need to stop the demand for making shoes, cheese and so on of out of them too. [edit: typed this while toys was tying the above post, he articulates it much better: I suppose I should re-examine the real effect of my meat free-existence given my ongoing use of and demand for dairy and leather)

In the meantime, my kids were both born 8lbs plus to a vegetarian mum, and raised omnivores. Daughter has made her own choices now (occasional pig-in-blanket related lapses), and son LOVES PIIIIIIG. 😆 I also find that cooking meat for your friends and children’s friends also sidesteps much of the preachyness/jibes etc and yet somehow I still sleep at night.

FWIW Graham and xherbivore are still only the 29ers of the food world: for true eating nicheyness, my (then vegan) wife once knew a couple of fruitarian musclemountain bodybuilders, and fruitarian lady who somehow raised a baby in good health as a fruitarian. 😯 IIRC there was something published in medical/paediatric journals about her: ( if anyone is interested in looking it up this franklly bonkers but fortunately healthy parenting, it was in Leicestershire in the early to mid 90’s and would have been overseen by paeds at Leicester Royal Infirmiary)

Zilog: I really like separate tongs for veggies at a barby. I’m not fussed about veg food being contaminated by meat juice – I just don’t like the way I usually see the meat go on and off with the same tongs

I see your point, it doesn’t bother me with steaks/beef burgers though as the raw juices aren’t going to hurt you. Wouldn’t do it with chicken though! (although I always cook chicken in the over first!)

Why not just discuss?

OK, it’s just crass and insulting to say vegetarians don’t deserve ‘any’ moral respect. They are still causing less animals to be killed than people who don’t eat meat. It’s this nonsense argument that comes up regularly on here that says ‘if you don’t lead an ethically totally pure lifestyle, you have no right to ever criticise or care about anything’.

I would agree that the dairy industry involves fairly unpleasant treatment so holier than thou vegetarians who drink milk would be being somewhat hypocritical. Haven’t seen any of them though – just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders (I repeat, I’m not vegetarian).

In the mean time, the moralising (I say this, because many veggies dont moralise, they just dont eat meat because they are squeamish or dont like it but are happy to put up with eggs, dairy, leather etc because really they dont give a shit and are hellbound like me) vegetarian argument that eating meat is bad, but eggs milk and leather are ok, just does not hold any water, as animals are killed with as much abandon to make eggs, leather and dairy as they are for steak.

You’re just criticising an imaginary position though – how many people in your life have ever actually argued that eating meat is bad but eggs, and leather and dairy is ok? I’ve never heard anyone say that.

Some people find it a level of compromise that they find acceptable – I don’t see why that would make you so judgmental about them though.

Julianwilson, there is no sustainable argument that meat/dairy is neccesary for growth and health. Umpteen million indians are veggy/vegan and they are thriving.

Meat eaters need to accept that the reason they eat meat is because they like it. End of.

Grum, why dont you read my posts and perhaps you will see that we actually agree?

Edit re imaginary position. Nope sorry had lots of moralising from veggies. Strangly enough the vegans I have come across tend to be more circumspect.

– I don’t see why that would make you so judgmental about them though.

because they are wrong, just because they find it an “acceptable compromise” does not make them morally right. Maggie Thatcher found sinking the belgrano acceptable, because she resolved it personally does that remove her moral obligation?

just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders

Well, all I can say is that I hope you aren’t including me there. I’ve really nothing against Vegetarians. I’ve learnt something though, as I’d never have considered the seperate tongs at the BBQ thing. So that will be noted for future reference.

Also, seeing as I’m here. Much respect to Julian for allowing their children to choose for themselves.
🙂

samuri – Member
However, if there’s one thing I still can’t stand, it’s when the ill-informed idiots question the wisdom of bringing our kids up vegan.

Vegans can’t have children. Only one of those sperms will achieve its purpose, the rest will starve and die….or be eaten, so by voluntarily attempting to fertilise eggs, you’re murdering things.

I knew something fishy going on with those vegetablists.

I don’t know, but I have a friend who is very anal and boring about his veg. I don’t take it too serious with him, because he achieved crazy things by being some kind yoga-mono-vegetable-raw eating shait.

I think it’s a conspiracy to turn people into this kind to consume more vegetables which in turn are heavily modified by food industry with nasty chemical cocktails.

You don’t have balls as a man if you get affected to the food you eat. No mercy from me to ship or cow. Give me machete , I maul them myself.

just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders

Yeah Solo or me. I clearly pointed out I have no moral high ground, I don’t see how I could be any more humble about it. I’m benused by the vitriol to be honest. It is only a discusiion.

As a herbivore/carnivore I have little problem with veggies I like to think as a “meat eater” I do you a service. Once you have milked said cow that had to have a calf to produce your milk I eat the bit you don’t want, the calf. So you can continue your happy life the same goes to leather shoes etc etc what are you proposing we just dump the rest of the animal in landfill once you have your bit.
If we all went Veggy our country would change immeasurably no more lambs in the field/ hills cows grazing, pig herds etc etc we would have far more combinable crops and far less green areas.

Maggie Thatcher found sinking the belgrano acceptable, because she resolved it personally does that remove her moral obligation?

Yes, great analogy. 😕

I clearly pointed out I have no moral high ground, I don’t see how I could be any more humble about it. I’m benused by the vitriol to be honest. It is only a discusiion.

And yet you just tried to draw a parallel between being vegetarian and the sinking of the Belgrano. 😕

Balls.

Who cares?

I eat what i want, you lot eat what you want.

Anyone who has an opinion on another persons eating habits unless it directly affects them (e.g. they ate your lunch), should find a hobby or something.

Haven’t found the fruitarian mum/baby yet but I did find this interview featuring fruitarianism with one of my wife’s old friends. Great beard. I think she said he rode a singlespeed town bike too. 😀

Meat eaters need to accept that the reason they eat meat is because they like it.

Fair enough. I like meat, I eat it. Do vegetarians accept that the reason they don’t eat meat is because they don’t like it, or do they bring up moral, economic, political and health reasons why meat is ‘bad’?

And yet you just tried to draw a parallel between being vegetarian and the sinking of the Belgrano.

I did not. If I had I would have said being vegetarian is as bad as sinking the belgrano. Which I bviously did not. I chose the extreme example as something that is so obviously wrong (as opposed to vegetariansm which is clearly more subtle) to point out that being comfortable with a concept does not make it morally correct.

Meat eaters need to accept that the reason they eat meat is because they like it.

I missed this nugget.

What other reason is there? Do some people eat meat because they have some unnatural compulsion to kill and devour cows?

People argue that meat eating is nutritionally necessary.

What other reason is there? Do some people eat meat because they have some unnatural compulsion to kill and devour cows?

I suppose it depends on the culture you are brought up in. If you are told that a meal is inciomplete without meat you may feel you ought to, and if you are told meat is baaaaad you may avoid it rather than try it with an open mind.
I tried to minimise any social expectations about diet and religion with my children and ended up with one veggie, one pig and chicken fan, one atheist and one eight year old white english Hindu. (although she is ‘backsliding’ of late…)

I don’t eat it because it’s nutritionally necessary, I eat it because I like it. Not sure why i needed to accept that though, but thanks for helping me through this difficult time 😛

Machamish, you have accepted it, thats what your statement means, ie you are not trying to make excuses foryourself like the meat eaters who say eating meat is necessary, chapeau, we will fight off the vegans together on judgement day. Hopefully using a few cow shinbones as clubs..

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NNuG-6-hQ[/video]

JulianWilson: I suppose after 15 years of treehugging, I ought to also read up on and consider the effect of milk, particularly cow’s milk. ie methane and the how if everyone stopped eating cows overnight there would still be a demand for them as milk producers.

You probably know but besides any moral arguments, many people reckon cow’s milk isn’t too good for your health anyway.

I think you could argue that the general public have very little understanding of ‘nutrition’, and that has nothing to do with whether you eat meat or not.

Machamish – agreed.
Tazzy – mitchell n webb, comedy leviathans.

Strangely enough the vegans I have come across tend to be more circumspect.

There’s a simple explanation for this I think. Most vegans I know, myself included, started out as very holier than thou, moral high ground types who invariably became vegan after much thought about the issues (it’s not the sort of thing you do for fashion after all). After a few years of being very strict and putting lots of effort into it, you gradually come to the view that it’s near impossible to be completely vegan. Everyone has their own boundaries, but because most(?) vegans have come to accept that it’s a target rather than a black and white thing, they lose the holier than thou attitude and come to recognise that it’s more complex than simply labelling yourself or others as ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Vegetarians on the other hand have probably not had to go through this thought process so still have the attitude.

Or maybe that’s bollox and the explanation is that most vegetarians do it for fashion and are shallow individual who like to put themselves on a pedestal and feel like they’re somehow better than others???

dazh, speaking as someone who’s been vegan for over 20 years, i’d say that was spot on.

As a herbivore/carnivore I have little problem with veggies I like to think as a “meat eater” I do you a service. Once you have milked said cow that had to have a calf to produce your milk I eat the bit you don’t want, the calf.

Err, no. Male calves from dairy herds are generally unsuitable for human consumption, so end up as pet food. A small percentage are raised as “rosé” veal.

Maggie Thatcher found sinking the belgrano acceptable, because she resolved it personally does that remove her moral obligation?

Actually, she probably found it acceptable because defending yourself proactively against a threat of violence is perfectly legal and in fact really just basic common sense.

Imagine how many people would be grizzling like babies had we suffered huge losses because the Belgrano hadn’t been stooped?

It should be noted that the leader of Argentine naval task force also accepted the Belgrano sinking was acceptable.

Still, military experts and legals teams v/s the media and some-uneducated ignoramuses, hmm, hard to know which side could be right isn’t it. 😯 🙄

Only read the first page, but I saw this come up again:

It takes a lot more land to breed animals than it does to grow grain.

And I have no idea how that can make sense. You can’t replace meat with grain, can you? Meat is protein.

I’d like to see some comparisons between meat and all the legumes/seeds you’d need to replace them. And not just intensively reared US beef, but also including chicken (free range and otherwise), and hill farmed UK lamb or mutton.

Actually, she probably found it acceptable because defending yourself proactively against a threat of violence is perfectly legal and in fact really just basic common sense.

I’m aware that arguments can be advanced for and against, but please do not pretend that it’s clear-cut, because it isn’t.

and I watch cans of carcinogen-contaminated horsemeat-filled products pulled out of supermarkets

I think tinned tomatoes are one of the worst for carcinogens, aren’t they? Apart from the tobacco which is also on the shelves, and is vegan.

Those tomatoes have been shipped around the world too, haven’t they? As opposed to the lambs that I can see from my window…

I eat meat but I would consider myself a vagitarian.

And I have no idea how that can make sense. You can’t replace meat with grain, can you? Meat is protein.

I’d like to see some comparisons between meat and all the legumes/seeds you’d need to replace them. And not just intensively reared US beef, but also including chicken (free range and otherwise), and hill farmed UK lamb or mutton.

I don’t understand your point? Animals turn their food into protein very inefficiently – I think it’s something like 10:1. Land used for raising animals or growing grain could also usually be used for growing other crops – which will be much more efficient than producing meat.

As for hill sheep farming – any lamb you buy this time of year will come from animals kept in sheds over winter and fed on grain. I’m not sure how much UK lamb actually comes from hill sheep farming – most of it round here seems to be on improved pasture.

What I want to know us why is there no meat option at a vegetarian restaurant!
I mean you go to any other restaurant then they cater for veggies!

If that’s not imposing your beliefs on someone I don’t know what is!

just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders

Mmmm, chips. I’ll have mine cooked in animal fat please.