unofficial loft conversion – invalid insurance???

Thinking of Getting the loft converted into an extra bedroom.
Scotland building regs don’t allow space saving stairs so can’t do what we want officially. If I get it done without proper warrant will I invalidate my home insurance??

Only if you need to claim.

Serious question, don’t want to save a few grand now and lose everything if I need to claim in the future

Serious answer.

How long ago will you be doing the conversion? 😈

Check your Policy…the answer will be there.

chris – yes you will, also fire regs and various other things.

We did a conversion about 6 yrs ago (Glasgow area) and looked at all the options

Other option is to insulate & floor loft, put a desk & sofa up there and use it as a kids homework room. Keep the loft ladder.

chris – the regs talk about occasional use as I recall so that option might give you a work around. Info should be online somewhere, or a call to Building Control (I found them very helpful) would clarify.

Iainc

I’ll check it out. That is basically what is there now. When we moved in it was a full bedroom up there in permenent use by previous owners, with a ladder!

So you dont care about somebody being trapped in the roof when the chip pan catches fire, thats why there legally enforced fire and building rgulations.

So you dont care about somebody being trapped in the roof when the chip pan catches fire, thats why there legally enforced fire and building rgulations.

Don’t be silly, the OP only wants answers that support him in his cost reduction project. 🙄

cost reductions save money but can cost lives, fire doors nd protected staircases are required, to save people trapped in a fire or from smoke.

Have you ever dragged somebody out of a smoke logged flat, i have.Luckily the paramedics and fire service arrived to put the flames out, but serious damage was caused.

Project, the exact plan I want would be fine in England, Wales or Ireland but not Scotland. So I can’t see that is inherintly dangerous.
Its not cost cutting, its trying to create an extra space without losing a room for a standard stair

project – Member
So you dont care about somebody being trapped in the roof when the chip pan catches fire, thats why there legally enforced fire and building rgulations.

Where does he say the ladder gets moved once someone is up there?

STW pick-OP-apart-post FAIL

project – don’t worry, it’s only a kids bedroom. They’re not old enough to be earning yet!

As above though – house insurance will be an issue…..

Is the property mortgaged? When we swapped mortgages last year the first questions asked by the surveyor were did the conversion meet buildings regs and could we provide the gas and elec certificates

But then again id be more concerned about my house being safe first off.

chriswilk – Member
Project, the exact plan I want would be fine in England, Wales or Ireland but not Scotland. So I can’t see that is inherintly dangerous.
Its not cost cutting, its trying to create an extra space without losing a room for a standard stair

You still need an enclosed staircase in england, along with fire doors, smoke seals, door closers , and wired smoke alarms.

A safe means of escape, in the event of fire, is to be provided. This guidance assumes the existing dwelling has at least two stories. The means of escape and fire protection required where a bungalow is to have a loft conversion are less exacting, due to shorter travel distances. However, with any loft conversion, the staircase must discharge close to a door leading to an external safe place and not in a room.

Staircases are to be enclosed by construction (doors and walls or partitions) capable of resisting fire for at least 30 minutes

I can’t see how it can invalidate insurance as 90%* of buildings in this country don’t meet current building regs.

E.g. my 1890s house has inadequate foundations as do all Victorian houses, but no one is jumping up and down worrying that it will collapse at any minute.

My brother just bought a house with a loft conversion with space saving stairs (put in when it was all legal and fine, but now a big no-no) – He had issue with insurance, mortgages etc

* made up number

Are you sure you can’t provide a compliant stairs?

Project – * floor over 4.5m AFGL with no alterative escape option

Footflaps the idea is they cant force people to change what they have but to not allow any more unsafe buildings to be created.

I looked at a few when buying and thought better of it . The rule seems to be you cannot use it as living space its nothing more than expensive storage.

i mean i guess youd not be doing the strengthening thats probably required also if it was never designed to be a room

is it not also a right pain in the arse to sell the property if you have done that. You need to show planning permission etc for any modifications at the time iirc….

I would do it properly. You said wou would have to lose a room to put in proper stairs, are you sure? We were told this by several builders etc when we wanted to convert our loft. We did find a architect who worked around the problem in the end. Our new stairs now run above the old ones, starting in our old airing cupboard. They are a rather tight fit and the joinery company had to make a model to scale before producing the staircase, but all is great now. All legal and without losing a bedroom.

Some friends have just made their loft into an unofficial bedroom and I think they should have spent a few extra grand and done in properly, all better in the long run. I suppose they would have lost some headroom as a proper conversion requires new beams.

Keep looking, perhaps you will find an architect who can help. It took us a while but we are glad we made the extra effort!

Re the victorian issue – building regs are not usually retrospective – the houses would have complied with the code at the time they were built so thats all that matters.

Project, the exact plan I want would be fine in England, Wales or Ireland but not Scotland. So I can’t see that is inherintly dangerous.

Fewer chip pans in England, Wales, or Ireland…

20 minute protected fire shaft and no smoke seals required on new build current regs. Just throw that into the mix!

Working in a grade one listed building our doors have special coatings applied to them. My office cupboard under the stairs at work where I store all my gear has a 20 minute coating on it. Like I’m going to climb in it and close the door when I can run 15m down the spacious corridor it’s in and kick the fire door open!!

Project- the plan I have includes enclosed stairs, fire doors, wired alarms, strengthening, etc. The ONLY problem is that I need a space saver stair and they are not allowed in Scotland. I’ll check recent reg changes as there have been a few.

Moniex – I’ve had several people round, we could put the new stair above the existing one but that would make the room there too small for a bed, so effectively useless.

The point about selling is correct – you would either have to show a regs certificate or not describe them as habitable rooms – ie your 4-bed house would only be marketable as a 3-bed with attic rooms.

EDIT: Sounds like you’ve been through the problem with various experts, so not sure how you overcome it. Can you extend the useable floorspace with a big dormer?

My experience of it was that our loft room always existed (ie there was always a staircase) so when it was renovated it didn’t need to meet planning regs and it is still allowed to be called a room despite no fire doors, access via another room, no low velux windows etc.

Other option is to insulate & floor loft, put a desk & sofa up there and use it as a kids homework room. Keep the loft ladder.

That’s what we did for ours. Fully fitted out with velux windows, leccy, lights, plasterwork, flooring and the eves turned into cupboards – but still just a dropping loft ladder to access it.

No planning permission required (English system) and about 15k cheaper than getting a full conversion.

Downside is that you can’t market it as a habitable room when you sell – but we reckon it’s a good “Just one more thing” to hook buyers anyway.

CBA reading all that above but English (not sure how/if thats different) mean that if you’re using it as a regular room, there needs to be a fire door as a minimum IIRC.

But, when we were looking at houses when we bought our current place, there were loads of houses on the market with semi converted attics advertised as ‘occasional bedrooms’.

Our attic was already converted (but done VERY badly) but because it was already done, we didn’t need the fire doors etc doing.

thanks all,
Also forgot to say that we already have a velux in there.

So, options are:
1. update insulation, flooring, heating that already exist (but done badly) – cost ~3k – no need for building regs.
2. put in space saver stair, enclose stair, make into proper room – ~10k but no building regs
3. put in proper stair, with building regs, would need large dormer added, lose a bedroom for the stair – ~30k.

Option 2 would be best IF possible with the new scottish building regs.
Need to check as they were ammended recently as I understand.
Otherwise it will be option 1.

chris – another thing to price in is that you will need fire doors on your ground floor and first floor rooms – all except bathrooms. We ‘forgot’ about that bit and it cost us a few grand extra as we wanted the new fire doors to match the existing doors. We also had to remove glass door from hall to lounge and replace with a solid fire one (for the inspection anyway…..)

I am not very up to date with the space saving stairs, but I am sure our “proper” stairs are only 60cm wide, turn twice AND end on a very small ‘landing’ (which then steps up to another small ‘landing’ before you get to the fire door into the room).

These ‘landings’ were the key to making it fit ‘legally’ I seem to remember. Also we don’t have the recommended minimum head height, and a lot of the room is quite low. We do love the room (we dont have a dorma as conservation), and as long as you are not 2m tall it is not a problem. It is surprising how usable it still is, eventhough lots of builders said it would be too low and not worth it.

I think is was about £15 in all from scratch including everything (new boiler, woodwork matching original, building regs).

Simone

Bathrooms are only exclusions, therefore storeage/airing cupboard types will also need a fire door if off the protected shaft.

Hi Chris,

You probably need to think about the implications for selling your house in future also.

Quick thread hijack would i be breaking any regs or rules blocking off an exit door in a kitchen there is alternative exit in another downsairs room

mav12, have a look at Building Regs, start at page 33 unless you live in a flat. I would also suggest speaking to building control, they really are there to help you.

My sister bought a house like this saving loads! The seller had a nightmare. Do it on the QT if you want but when you try to sell….it won’t. Then your buyers will force you to do it up to standard and drop their offers accordingly. So you lose cash and have extra hassle from lawyers. Who could be bothered with that?