I am just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience to mine and what the outcomes were?

I dropped my daughter across to her halls in London at the weekend. £6k + per year for a shoe box. She was told all lectures would be online but tutorials would be face to face.

Anyway, she got her timetable today and EVERYTHING is online, lectures AND tutorials. Cheaper by far for her to fly across intermittently and stay in a hotel when necessary than pay £6k per year if all teaching is online.

Just wondering if anyone else has had the goalposts moved similarly and what the uni said about rent for halls?

You saw that coming though, right?

Booking hall type accommodation was still a must, because the change back to more (some?) face to face could happen at any time… and then it would be a mad dash for that kind of accommodation. This term was always going to be mostly (entirely?) learning remotely for many.

It also depends on the location of the Uni. The government has set tiers of provision, so Uni to Uni and course to course will vary. Realise London is not currently in local lockdown, but gives you some context.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/updated-guidance-for-universities-ahead-of-reopening

We are not in local lockdown and also delivering tutorials online (only practicals are in person) and it’s because we simply do not have space for socially distanced tutorials for every student across the Uni. Rooms that hold 6 students plus an academic at 2 m and with appropriate ventilation are few and far between when you have an entire Uni to accommodate.

The restrictions all make sense. Students shouldn’t be paying for them though, we all should be… this year’s loans, for fees and accommodation, should be paid off in full by the government (us).

This I agree with.

I am told by Heriot Watt that if they send them home / close down halls, they won’t have to pay ongoing.

My concern is if they do mainly online and keep halls open.

I have to say one of lectures is an open source, online course…they just work through it and show certificate. I cannot tell if because they login with a Heriot Watt email it is actually a course specifically for the Uni or is just a free, open source course…

And yes, £6.5k for a 1980’s unimproved shoe box, kitchen shared between 8 with one cooker, one cupboard each, one fridge, lounge between 16 and 2000+ student all paying that and significantly more = borderline extortion.

I know they get security, bills included, broadband etc, but his room and services is really poor value IMO.

But then I am also believe that the £9k per year uni costs are also borderline a giant ponzi scheme nationally. I also think this year will show the poor value uni offers, and how much they are prepared to protect their little empires rather than serve the learners.

MOAB,

Which hall is he in? I thought they knocked all the old stuff down…

That will be 1990’s breeze block you know…

Those worrying about this – keep in mind that the university experience is about more than the teaching; even if very little contact time happens (it will just be like an arts degree then ;-)) they will learn a lot about like from living in those halls.

But then I am also believe that the £9k per year uni costs are also borderline a giant ponzi scheme nationally. I also think this year will show the poor value uni offers, and how much they are prepared to protect their little empires rather than serve the learners.

As a tired member of academic staff I am really sorry but I really disagree with this. The very vast majority of staff really really care about the well being and education of their students with many fighting so hard to improve things this year. If you sat in on the 2 hour meeting I was in last week, or the one tomorrow…you’d appreciate what I mean. In all the Uni posts you have been part of Matt you really seem to hate Uni’s, whatever is said.

From someone who visits the HW campus relatively regularly, yep it’s not great!

I don’t disagree that students are in a very difficult position this year. However the government landed this fee position on us (the old fees were topped up by the government), despite many Universities and staff arguing against it at the time. The upside from your perspective is it’s turned students into customers in a USA style model and every tiny complaint and wish tries to be met. I agree with Kelvin – both students and the Uni’s should be supported by the government this year.

I’ve just quit a job working as a disability mentor for a major university. There were a lot of reasons why I quit, mostly related to childcare and such but I have to admit I would have found it very hard advising students through this next year.
There is absolutely no way that students should be paying fees for university this year, as the service they will be recieving will be a pale imitation of what university should be. Most of the lectures will be old recordings, remote seminars and tutorials are usually a joke and all the Union/society/social stuff will be all but nonexistent.
Assessments will be an absolute mess, as students will be applying for mitigation left, right and centre when things don’t go well for them.
Prices for halls are insane, more so when they’re off campus private animals. We had a student last year paying £500 a month just to park their car at halls. When we looked into it, the company were taking the piss and we got the student a refund, but only because they were disabled. It never ceases to amaze me the size of the industry around taking money off students.

We knew the situation and took a sort of inverse approach. It looked like everything would be online so the original plan was to stay at home. We had a contingency in place to stay with family in Berkshire if things reopened after Christmas.

My daughter has her head screwed on and knew the rent savings could make the other years a bit better funded or possibly allow her to take the option of an international placement year.

My daughter heads back to her second year halls this weekend (med student dispensation that they keep them on site for year-2).

>£6k for digs but they are quite new and presentable.

Their tutorials are planned to be face to face. They also have ‘problem based learning’ which is in a small cohort and practicals are in the labs (cutting up cadavers). Stuff you can’t do online.
Full lockdown will mean they’re sent home again of course.

I struggle with the concept of being away from home unnecessarily for purely online lectures…it may suit some students but I would think plenty would prefer the support of family / home life?

Mine is in hall. Paid his £9K in fees from his own savings. Paid first term’s hall bill £2k also from his own savings. We’re paying the rest. He will be in college 2/5 days and zooming for much of the rest. However it is very hard to play on the parts of an aeroplane virtually. And yes, the bit you all want to know. There IS a lightening. In parts.

I can understand those courses which have a practical aspect needing physical attendance but my daughter’s reading English. No practicals. No lab work etc. I’m really struggling to find sense in the approach the university has taken.

I can only empathise with those going to Uni now, it’s not ideal by a long shot. But please don’t underestimate, some Unis or at least the on-the-ground staff who deal with students day in and day out do want the best for them. It is going to be a difficult compromise. But by coming into Halls, they will get a household group in Halls and a tutorial group on their course who they will get to know well. Not the same and no choice compared with other years, but they will get to meet other people. And then there will be sports activities allowed, so the astute who want to be social will join lots of sports clubs. The lack of ‘socialising = drinking’ will be the same if at Uni for the first time or in their home town, so for many young adults, it is still preferable to be away from home. And please also consider the many more-vulnerable or less-privileged students who don’t have a welcoming and encouraging home to ‘go back to’ or stay in. There are many situations where being in Halls, being in contact with their Department staff and admin and hopefully having some face-to-face contact, even if only a fraction of previous years, is a far better learning and development environment than not. (I know of several people who were paying rent to their parents at 16 and/or paying off parents debts and if they had stayed at home probably would not have felt able to study and would have had a very different life outcome.)

I am not directly involved with students (I research) but my impression for my Uni and Department is that some lectures will go ahead with reduced student numbers (we’ll repeat the lecture 3x) while some will be presented live on video-conferencing and attendance and means of checking engagement will be brought in – definitely no recordings. We will have face-to-face pastoral and study tutorials in small groups in very large rooms, but these will be limited because of space capacity, so perhaps 2 tutorials will be done online for every 1 face-to-face. And all labs will be taught 3-4 x for smaller groups.

I also agree with Kelvin. Government should be supporting the sector by supporting the students (not the Unis directly imo).

And yes, £6.5k for a 1980’s unimproved shoe box, kitchen shared between 8 with one cooker, one cupboard each, one fridge, lounge between 16 and 2000+ student all paying that and significantly more = borderline extortion.

Have you checked the price of rented accomodation in Edinburgh? Thats about what you would be paying for a room in a shared flat once you take into account bills

There IS a lightening. In parts.

Oooo…. [ drifts off to memories of being a small boy living on RAF bases ]

I also agree with Kelvin. Government should be supporting the sector by supporting the students (not the Unis directly imo).

Just to check I’ve been clear… Unis shouldn’t be refunding students in any way… we all should be, via the government. Currently students are paying to support the universities through this difficult time, and no matter how hard universities try the students will not get the usual value for money. We shouldn’t expect students to carry the can… we should all be paying to get universities though this, not relying on student debt. Wipe out part or all of this years student finance debt… so that the unis still get the funds from the students, but the students get some recompense from the state (us).

As a tired member of academic staff I am really sorry but I really disagree with this

@ahsat

My apologies, it wasn’t a dig at the hard working academics and lecturers.

My grump is with the structure of university’s, the money machine they have become. I’ve friends who lector and I work closely with others in uni. I can only speak of the time and need to bring in income pressure they are feeling.

We at work have approached three universities to work with us to deliver specific area of training as a master’s module. Two of the three said they would not do this, as they could in theory do it for themselves, and wouldn’t want a partner. They won’t be doing it, but they are closing the market down by not working with us. Another uni was open to discussion, however a first audit of where we are already would cost us £10k+ vat. They also said the £800-2,000 income per lecturer, per day was too little, when they can get 120 students in a lecture hall and earn more than that.

Add on that (in Scotland) the universities dominate the wealthiest charity tables, particularly the ancient and some chartered. This means that our universities are often better off than they suggest, to staff and externally.

Compare the £9k per year study fees, plus research and other funding, plus donations/savings interest etc, and the income per hour of teaching delivery per student is huge. I’m not sure there’s a definitive figure. What I can say is one of my other son’s has more contact time, better support and nicer buildings from his college – who earn £4.1k per student. My other son at school has more contact time, great facilities, smaller class sizes and higher paid staff and our secondary schools get between £4-6k per annum. The comparative value is poor.

I also understand, but would need to find figures, that a really significant proportion of graduates don’t get jobs in thier field of study and a few less take jobs that don’t require a degree. So why spend £9k pa when they could work or go to college/apprenticeship etc. This from family member who is head of careers at a university

I would say from an accommodation point of view, the costs are high because of both add on’s (e.g. broadband and heating) but also as students trash the place. That said, I would have thought from an ideological point of view, halls should offer value as a hosting (charitable) university that a profit making landlord like myself can’t. I think the private rents are partly so high because the halls are so expensive.

So no, not a go at delivery staff so much as the institution and concept of university. I think we should have more apprenticeships, more college level and more ‘get out and work before you go to uni’…

Thanks Matt

I think we should have more apprenticeships, more college level and more ‘get out and work before you go to uni’…

And this I whole hardly agree with, and that is coming from someone working in HE who regularly sees students who shouldn’t be studying with us (for all sorts of reasons). I also have first-hand experience with my brother who went to a top Uni because that is what you do (no other direction given by his school), absolutely hated it and left after a year, with a year of debt he never should have had. He worked hard, won multiple awards with his start-up farm in his 20s, supplied numerous Michelin-started resturants, and now reads the news to millions of people for the BBC. He is only 30! He never should have gone despite being a straight-A student, but we don’t facilitate other models. Ok, he is a pretty extreme example, but it just illustrates Uni is not for everyone and we should be ok with that and support students via other routes.

And yes, the pressure for income is crazy (she says balancing multiple funding applications and teaching at the same time today!)

I could see major group litigation against universities down the road over how this has been handled. The very least they can do is release students from their accommodation contracts without penalty if they decide everything is online.

If you are going to teach everything remotely then students should be told in advance so they can make an informed choice about incurring the expense of moving to the campus area.

Well said @konagirl

As a parent I find it very heartening to read the very obvious commitment and empathy displayed by those posters above who are involved in third level education.

I am concerned that uni management told students at least part of their courses would be face to face without having an unambiguous commitment from teaching staff and trades unions that this could be delivered. Do you uni staff feel this is a trope to put pressure on teaching staff to deliver face to face teaching?

EDIT: daughter has just been told there will be only three face to face sessions in November. That’s three face to face teaching sessions for the entire October to January term. I think it’s time for her to come home. Very much sounds like the three sessions in November are just playing for time as well.

@shooterman raises it well – there is a big difference between the delivery staff at uni’s and what is being decided and communicated at the very top level of the university.

Going to get cosy in Dundee Halls – just announced some covid diagnosis so 500 students told to self isolate!

I don’t feel there is a simple answer to the question “is [the trope about face to face teaching] to put pressure on teaching staff”. I get the impression many lecturers do want face-to-face lectures and ‘blended learning’, mostly because it means they can gauge engagement, it is how they are used to teaching. Also to some extent the more that can be delivered in the ‘traditional’ way, the less time spent re-doing course content and examination / assessments. But to be fair I work in a Department who do (1) lots of practical work that can’t be delivered any other way and (2) some very pragmatic people involved in microbiology who understand this isn’t ‘going away’ so their take is we have to get on with what we do in the safest way we can make it work. But I equally acknowledge there will be lots of staff (lecturers, demonstrators and our professional support staff) who don’t want or can’t be doing face-to-face. The Union and staff feedback is about allowing staff to make appropriate decisions about their own wellbeing and about how this period is ‘assessed’ by everyone (from the Government ‘research / teaching excellence’ rubbish method that massively affects Uni income to individual performance metrics which affects both promotions in-house but also likelihood of winning money to do research etc). Someone who should ideally shield shouldn’t be penalised for not wanting to be on campus and face-to-face with thousands of students.

Re the Dundee Halls. They are only being asked to isolate until close contact tracing is done. In all likelihood there will only be a few 10’s of people who have been in close contact and have to isolate for 14 days. And the Uni should be providing support (i.e. meals etc) to each individual who has to self-isolate because of close contact to the positive case. But I do agree, it is not ideal and you only need a small minority to not follow the rules and you could get outbreak after outbreak in halls.

But I do agree, it is not ideal and you only need a small minority to not follow the rules and you could get outbreak after outbreak in halls.

Exactly – this is tricky.
Daughter #2 is in a “townhouse” (one of about 20 within a gated ‘compound’) of 12 students that now has 4 confirmed cases, including her – last two confirmed cases exhibited just loss of taste and smell.
They don’t want to waste resources and are assuming everyone in the house has CV as they all have symptoms but feel fine – but I think they all need to be tested to be sure and for contact tracing to be done.
In the meantime they’re all isolating together as a household and hopefully that will be their isolation done for the winter.

Daughter #3 is in a large halls that might be liable to repeated periods of isolation.

The restrictions all make sense. Students shouldn’t be paying for them though, we all should be… this year’s loans, for fees and accommodation, should be paid off in full by the government (us).

Can’t argue with the this. Essentially a government supported scheme in line with furloughjng. Shouldn’t be means tested by only those with loans. Should be everyone.

Just to add our experience. Took son to big Unipol halls in Leeds for Beckett Uni on Saturday. Plan for some online/zoom work, but some in person too. Course is Dance, so very hands on. Course intake has been split into several bubbles, and work has started as planned.

In halls, huge (450+) place is split into multiple flats of 4-8. He is in a 4, and is doing a little a bit of mixing with course, but mostly with flatmates. Saw him yesterday and he seems very happy. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

Definitely getting more tense at Uni, but I do think now we are in the position where students have started to arrive, we can’t go back on their expectations. But yes our Union is very unhappy, does not want staff pressured into face-to-face teaching, which I also understand. We’ve had ~4 months of summer to try to plan for the inevitable. Even with all the will in the world, moving this many people about the country was going to lead to outbreaks – it’s about the procedures in place (bubbles, household size, limiting mixing) and how the contact tracing. Best wishes to those with family moving / starting.

Shouldn’t be means tested by only those with loans. Should be everyone.

Fair point.

There must be a way to refund say, half the fees, of all students, without reducing the funds the Universities receive this year… it’ll cost the government (us) but it should be done. Students shouldn’t be paying the same this year for a reduced teaching year (that is no fault of the Universities). Those that have paid direct via direct debit etc could get a straight payment refund… those who had their fees paid by student finance should have their outstanding debt reduced… with the government (us) making up the shortfall to the Unis/loan companies as appropriate… whatever is easiest administratively.

Our own individual position is that our daughter has moved to London from Ireland. Her flatmates haven’t moved in. The two that are there plan to spend significant time at home. All teaching will be online.

The fear is she’s going to end up stuck in a room totally isolated. It’s like watching an avoidable car crash.

So now you have Hancock saying nonsense like we can’t rule out not letting students home for Xmas…..belter.

we can’t rule out not letting students home for Xmas

That’s what I meant about a “quiet Xmas”… sorry for being cryptic.

Edit: weird… my xmas post is missing… perhaps I’m crossing the streams…

It’s like watching an avoidable car crash.

I’m with you there. I pushed for not booking accommodation… but before the deadline they were saying that there would be plenty of on site learning this term, with just seminars being handled remotely. I never believed it for a second… but what was a student to do…? Not book accommodation and then not be able to attend the on site learning if it did happen?

So… in Scotland students aren’t allowed to go home… already. Making the decision after rather than before students arrived there… especially when many have only just been told that all learning will be remote only this term now… well… it stinks, doesn’t it. It was entirely possible to decide back in May that all university learning would be remote until xmas… it’s the economic impact that has driven this, not the interests of anyone “attending” university.

And they’re not even allowed to go to the pub either.
They’re just being milked for money now.

They or their parents parents are just being milked for money now.

FTFY

Edited again to reflect Kelvin’s valid point

Most students have to self finance via debt, their parents can’t afford their fees or their accommodation costs… they are paying for this year themselves.

So… in Scotland students aren’t allowed to go home… already. Making the decision after rather than before students arrived there

I can’t say I’m surprised, was always likely to happen, as was the risk of Christmas lockdown.

Secondary school teachers in March were saying delay exam (on the premise that things would improve) even until now. That’ll allow marking but will mean a delay of Freshers until January. If only government allowed others to have ideas that had potential.

Ofqual proposed that as well.

Heard on the news this evening a number of universities in Rep of Ireland are refunding students their accommodation fees if they decide not to take a place in halls.