Viewing 34 posts - 41 through 74 (of 74 total)
  • Ukraine, Russia, Poland & war
  • Bazz
    Full Member

    Blimey, i have just read one of Ninfans posts and agreed with him, i am genuinely shocked at myself 😯

    But in all seriousness, it’s an ugly situation but try and remember that what Putin is doing is nothing more than we and the US have done countless times before. A case of the pot calling the kettle black imo.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Tom W is right, when I asked a Ukrainian about their politics, it was explained that they expected their politicians to be useless and corrupt.
    But the young in particular thought EU membership might fix that, when Yanukovich declared for Russia after being elected on a pro EU pledge and it quickly became obvious he’d been Putin’s man all along then they kicked off.

    Regardless Putin’s in a strong position now, he’s had plenty of tanks, guns and soldiers in Ukraine for months now, they even shot down a civilian airliner using Russian supplied weapons and the West and NATO have done nothing

    There will always be money for Russian gas inspite of any sanctions, he will be fine.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    Allegedly much of it is Putin’s.

    It is now.

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    molgrips
    Free Member

    All those saying that something must be done – what, exactly? Attacking Russian forces, even if they are in Ukraine won’t end well AT ALL.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    All those saying that something must be done – what, exactly?

    The behind the scenes games seem to be already in motion:

    https://news.vice.com/article/nato-isnt-arming-ukraine-just-like-russia-isnt-fighting-there

    El-bent
    Free Member

    Because the Ukraine is not a NATO member, and Europe has been caught pissing in Russia’s back yard!

    What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?

    The EU nations support of the violent and unconstitutional overthrow of a democratically elected president in Ukraine is intolerable, utterly shameful!

    You’ll have to blame the previous Ukrainian president for his duplicity in that regard.

    Whatever we may feel about Russia’s influence and actions after that cannot and must not take away from the fact that there was a coup, and we in the west backed it.

    Erm, I’m finding this new found high horse/moral high ground stuff most amusing, considering what what the “west” as you put it have done in the past. I know this is an Anti-EU thing with you Labrat, but siding with Putin is pretty low even by your standards.

    Poland and the other new NATO members can cry all they like, I would take their bleatings of fear more seriously if they had been investing in their own defence forces, but none of them have come close to the annual spend of the key NATO countries (in GDP, let alone total figures)

    These countries are developing economies, shouldn’t expect them to spend the amounts that UK/France/US spend, although they should be told to get as close to the 2% as possible. They are in Nato however and their fear of Russia has been proved right.

    Nor is what Russia have been doing in Ukraine really any different from the meddling we in UK and the US did in countless countries over the past decade and a bit – we supported and openly intervened where it was in our own interests. The moral panic is misplaced, we’re at least as bad as the Russians, probably worse – the hypocrisy of our own governments is rank!

    Well so what?

    Regardless Putin’s in a strong position now, he’s had plenty of tanks, guns and soldiers in Ukraine for months now, they even shot down a civilian airliner using Russian supplied weapons and the West and NATO have done nothing

    We have been hamstrung by capitalism. Talk about the “former communists” using it as a weapon against us.

    mattjg
    Free Member

    IMO:
    * trying to work out Putin’s behaviour on the assumption he’s rational is an error, he’s lost it a bit. Most importantly he hasn’t really got any skin in the game. Ordinary Russians and people of other nations will suffer, but he and his oligarch mates will be cosy, regardless of the outcome, so he can sit back and play the great game at his leisure.
    * US/Nato/Eu will not intervene militarily in Ukraine, that’s already been said. That’s all that bothers him, the rest is just saying “don’t do that” a bit louder. He’ll do whatever he damn wants in Ukraine.
    * presumably the Russian military are going to open a land corridor to Crimea. Ain’t nobody going to stop them. They’ll also leave eastern Ukraine, if not more, in the hands of the “rebels” to create an anarchic buffer zone.
    * there is no way on earth he will militarily attack NATO members. The shit would then truly hit the fan, he knows that. But in the meantime the cyber warfare, spreading of political dissent etc will continue. Glasnost and the “peace dividend” are history.

    I don’t think Poland has cause for concern, in the short term at least. In the long term who knows, we could all be in for it.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?

    Same as we do, and its never stopped us (Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya…)

    You’ll have to blame the previous Ukrainian president for his duplicity in that regard.

    Doesn’t matter, a coup is undemocratic and unsupportable, against everything we’re supposed to stand for – the impeachment was in breach of the constitution.

    They are in Nato however and their fear of Russia has been proved right.

    Has it? I reckon Russia’s longstanding fear of Nato/EU expansion through force has been proved right by them backing the overthrow of a democratically elected head of state, leading to the persecution of thousands of Russian speakers and citizens who want to be allowed to cede from Ukraine – or does the right to self determination only apply to Kosovan and Scottish people?

    catschroedinger
    Free Member

    Now who was that hatstand that wrote Mein kampf.
    Bet no one thought he was going to annexxe all of Europe

    But he had a go, funny thing about people who are in power is sometimes they can go on a power trip and don’t give a f

    skiboy
    Free Member

    that funny man who wrote mein kampf was a bit of a chancer who got lucky.

    he just did a slightly quicker and much better job than old imperial germany had previuosly tried in 1914. the thing was europe was still weak and broke after the 1st round thats why he got away with it.

    this is a totally different thing all together, we will stand by and let him do what he wants because all he wants is somewhere to keep the black sea fleet and easy access to suez and the med.

    as for risking finances by going to war it’s well documented that during the two world wars the US and British banks still provided finance and banking to germany and the other axis powers. putin won’t go to war with the west because he doesn’t need to. it’s not a risk. which is why the headlines are all about some couple who took their kid to spain and some hollywood stars naked snaps.

    proof is they shot down an airliner by accident and everyone was like..sh1t..what a bastard. if that was a middle eastern muslim country the daily mail would be flat out along side the sun for sending in the troops.

    your right about the polish though they are bricking it as i found out at work the other day, its all they talk about.

    esselgruntfuttock
    Free Member

    This could turn Racist, which would be a REAL problem!

    chip
    Free Member

    If that airliner had 90 Americans instead of Dutch I think you would have had american special forces securing the crash site.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    I wasn’t aware that thinking Putin and his goons being **** implied unstinting support for the policies of the West, but in the world of whataboutery, apparently it does.

    skiboy
    Free Member

    My god who’s being racist !

    If you mean me I was pointing out that hitler just got lucky but once we pulled together he got his arse kicked.
    Putin only ever wanted Sebastopol
    And the daily mail is shite ?

    And also mattjg got it spot on with the land corridor.

    oldnpastit
    Full Member

    I don’t know if this is true, but the Ukrainians seem to think the Russians are prepared to use nukes on them:

    http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-threatened-nuclear-attack-says-ukraine-defence-minister-267842

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko says he has agreed with Russian President Vladimir Putin by phone on a “permanent ceasefire” with rebels.

    “Their conversation resulted in agreement on a permanent ceasefire in the Donbass region [the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk],” his office said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042561

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeldwfOwuL8[/video]

    😀

    mattjg
    Free Member

    I suspect the ceasefire means Russia doing what they want without being shot at. The Little Green Men will start to popup here and there.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?

    Same as we do, and its never stopped us (Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya…)[/quote]
    …and they’re not even neighbouring.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    (Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya…)

    Are you seriously comparing the attempted annexation of a sovereign state’s territory with peace keeping missions like the Balkans? or Kosovo, which was essentially a (shameful) land grab by ethnic albanians? or Sierra Leone which was humantitarian as much as anything? There was no determination in foreign countries policy at all.
    To do so demonstrates a severe lack of understanding in the nature of these ops.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    I don’t remember Afghanistan or Libya being a land grab either and it’s completely debatable as to whether we actually profited or wanted to profit from the Iraq war.

    Tom – a return to full cold war status would cost us all a huge amount in extra taxes to fund a rebuilding of our military. I don’t have the numbers to hand of military now vs when all the troops where in Germany in the 70’s. I think the US alone had 500,000 troops in Germany, aside from the armies being smaller all the equipment and facilities have been lost and today’s replacements are much much more expensive.

    No need to adopt cold war spending policy but an increase in defense funding is probably a good idea now. Russia isn’t the big bear that could come crashing through Europe like it was at the height of the cold war, however Europe needs to develop a cohesive defense policy and structure. The worlds only going to become a scarier place strategically over the next 100 years, in terms of access to resources, trade and food/water. The world is forming into blocks and Europe will find itself rapidly left behind without military clout.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Russia isn’t the big bear that could come crashing through Europe like it was at the height of the cold war

    It could be argued that it never was. I have spoken to a good few of those who were BAOR, and they have some fascinating stories.
    It would seem that we indoctrinated our side to fear the big russian bear on the other side of the wall, however when the wall came down and the soldiers got chatting it transpired that they were just as poorly equipped (if not even worse) as we were and were also similarly convinced by their seniors that we were highly skilled, equipped and to be feared. Funny how those who were to be pitted against each other to the death actually bore no malice towards each other at all.

    Europe needs to develop a cohesive defense policy and structure.

    This^ without some kind of co ordination we’re just a collection of fairly small nations, each could be easily trampled by the big boys (who all hate the idea of the EU, including america)

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    This^ without some kind of co ordination we’re just a collection of fairly small nations, each could be easily trampled by the big boys (who all hate the idea of the EU, including america)

    Yup, the conservatives are a bit foolish if they think we can survive without closer integration with Europe. Although perhaps closer military integration could be done without being in the EU, but I don’t see how you can have this without political integration.

    It would seem that we indoctrinated our side to fear the big russian bear on the other side of the wall, however when the wall came down and the soldiers got chatting it transpired that they were just as poorly equipped (if not even worse) as we were and were also similarly convinced by their seniors that we were highly skilled, equipped and to be feared. Funny how those who were to be pitted against each other to the death actually bore no malice towards each other at all.

    Heh! Usually the case.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    On a related note, this is one of those htings that didn’t really make the news, but will probably have a big impact on relations with Russia.

    Russia has been ordered to pay out $50billion* by the international court in the Hague, to the shareholders of Yukos for forceing it’s bancruptcy and breaking it up (remember the dody trial of Mikhail Khodorkovsky and subsequent release just before the Olympics?). Now Russia clearly isnt going to pay up, which paves the way for the siezing of $50bn of it’s states assets in the countries which recognise the court in the Hague.

    *Youkos produced more oil than Iraq at the time it was broken up.

    zokes
    Free Member

    The scarier option is to do nothing.

    Well, Tom, judging by your user name, I guess you’d be the correct age for military service. Put your money where your mouth is.

    Conversely…

    there is no way on earth he will militarily attack NATO members. The shit would then truly hit the fan, he knows that.

    Finland and Sweden are both non-NATO

    All a bit of a mess, really!

    mefty
    Free Member

    Yup, the conservatives are a bit foolish if they think we can survive without closer integration with Europe. Although perhaps closer military integration could be done without being in the EU, but I don’t see how you can have this without political integration.

    NATO, keeping the peace for 66 years.

    mattjg
    Free Member

    Finland and Sweden are both non-NATO

    Fair point. Though my expectation is they are probably regarded strategically as “one of us” in a way that, from the point of view of western europe, Ukraine isn’t.

    I reckon if Russia attacked either, NATO would step in. Neither I think does wither country have a block of ‘ethnic Russians’ that Russia could use to wedge open the door in the way that was done in Ukraine.

    In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?

    Do you mean the Finnish Civil War, fought with German assistance?

    zokes
    Free Member

    In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?

    Yeah, with a lot of Nazi help (albeit probably grudgingly), and against a Russia that was fighting a war on two fronts already

    mefty
    Free Member

    Nazi

    German Imperial Army

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    I think zokes you are confusing the Finnish Civil War with the Second World War (in which the outcome was rather different).

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Civil war? That was 1918 wasn’t it? The 1939 winter war wasn’t fought with German help.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    No not the Winter War. Later in WWII they fought with Germany against Russia. Once the tide turned, so did the Finnish army and kicked out the Germans.

    Duplicitous eh? Still – bloody good rally drivers.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Can’t blame them really, Finnish culture is quite different to Russian. An enemy of an enemy is a friend etc.

    mattjg
    Free Member

    Duplicitous eh?

    Pragmatic.

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