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  • Ukraine
  • 1
    timba
    Free Member

    Such ill advice to encourage Ukraine to fight on with senseless life loss with no chance of pushing the Russian back.

    I’m not sure who you’re referring to, but I think you’ll find that it was Ukraine asking the US to allow the use of US weapons within Russia’s international borders.

    The use of GMLRS missiles will push Russian forces back inside Russia

    The American is basically sending the Ukrainian to their death.  Yes, Russia will have many death but Ukraine cannot afford that.

    Russia started this, not “The American”, by invading their peaceful, non-NATO, non-nuclear neighbour. Russia is sending both Russians and Ukrainians to their death.

    Russia already has a demographic problem and certainly cannot afford to make that worse. All wars are a tragedy from beginning to end and sadly Ukraine is having to defend itself with a tremendous toll to maintain their independence and culture

    3
    timba
    Free Member

    If it’s Ukrainian lives that you care about, you would be in favour of sending as much equipment as necessary to evict Russia from Ukrainian territory

    Absolutely

    3
    blokeuptheroad
    Full Member

    Ukraine (not if), Putin invades Estonia, Finland, Czechia, Poland and Slovakia, what would you say then? Roll over?

    Probably.  He’s been fairly consistent in saying yield to Russia on this thread.

    4
    hatter
    Full Member

    The loss of Ukrainian lives so far is tragic but only the slightest hint of the human tragedy that would unfold should Russia achieve her aims.

    Have some people forgotten Bucha already?

    This is not some ‘strictly business’ change of administration at gun point, it’s a war of cultural annihilation. Russia’s behaviour in the areas it has taken fully proves that.

    Ukraine knows this and they are fighting accordingly.

    2
    fasgadh
    Free Member

    There is always someone welcoming their new overlords.

    2
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    @chewkw, if you were around in the 1930’s would you have been happy to let Germany invade and control the whole of Europe as it “would have saved lives” not to declare war on Germany?

    The same in China too, as Japan perpetrated huge atrocities?

    2
    sobriety
    Free Member

    But have you stopped to consider? America Bad.

    1
    ElShalimo
    Full Member

    Yeah but Russia is well badderer *100

    2
    scaredypants
    Full Member

    unless D!T! gets in – then things could go bigly badly

    1

    Give Ukraine what it needs and let them have at it.

    This, but there is a growing issue of willing and able bodies. And they can’t be pulled out of a factory.

    I get the interest in kit, munitions and so forth but to hold ground you need people. That’s an immutable bottom line in warfare.

    That’s a harder conversation to have due to the inconsistency in reporting, open source information and widespread propaganda.

    It makes it safer for the armchair observers to focus on hard data like kit & munitions as that’s quantifiable.

    andrewh
    Free Member

    This, but there is a growing issue of willing and able bodies.

    This isn’t a uniquely Ukrainian issue.

    I remember the thread on here about if we were to be conscripted and how many people here said they would refuse to fight, and this is a forum dominated by men of fighting age. There will come a point where all those who have the courage to stand up and fight have joined up and they start running into conscription issues. Russia has less of a problem here as they have methods of getting people to fight which would not be permitted elsewhere

    This isn’t a uniquely Ukrainian issue.

    I remember the thread on here about if we were to be conscripted and how many people here said they would refuse to fight, and this is a forum dominated by men of fighting age. There will come a point where all those who have the courage to stand up and fight have joined up and they start running into conscription issues. Russia has less of a problem here as they have methods of getting people to fight which would not be permitted elsewhere

    I know, volunteer/draft/conscription, whatever you’re want to call it is a standard problem within defence circles. Bodies to fill positions is an eternal problem that in peacetime is never solved, let alone whilst under attack.

    The problems for UKR are already having an impact. There’s quite a few videos and reports going around various social media platforms.

    Not sure how much is being suppressed or not reported in, but the problems are there already and some of the measures compelling people to serve would be frowned upon on an ordinary day.

    I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to fight in that meat grinder.

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    The inevitable:

    Moscow warns West after Ukraine told it can hit Russia with Western weapons

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqq2zn3zw6o

    Got to almost admire the big, brass balls:

    A Kremlin spokesman said, “They are in every possible way provoking Ukraine to continue this senseless war.”

    2
    timba
    Free Member

    I get the interest in kit, munitions and so forth but to hold ground you need people. That’s an immutable bottom line in warfare.

    There are many reasons for that lack of people, but it doesn’t change the bottom line:

    Ukraine needs materiel to give to people, unless Ukraine is happy to wave people off in museum pieces, while arming them with museum pieces fitted with airsoft weapon sights

    The media in the last six months has been full of stories about a lack of munitions for Ukraine and few volunteers will want to fight what they see as an ill-equipped lost cause. I really can’t blame them, but a lack of people leads to a lack of rotations out for those who do serve and service in Ukraine’s military is currently open-ended, which doesn’t give people anything to look forward to. It only adds more reasons to not enlist in the first place and the cycle goes on. And then you add the growing numbers of deceased and injured who do return…

    Ukraine’s politicians haven’t helped the situation by dithering. Drafting civilians was called for in February 2022 and the laws have only just been passed. Put an end date on service and get recruiting now that aid is on the way so that the recruits have decent kit.

    You can rewrite those paragraphs ^^ and substitute “Russia” for “Ukraine” and you wouldn’t be too far off the truth, which is that this war has become a slogfest. It’s the materiel that is Ukraine’s force-multiplier while they’re outnumbered 2:1. Estimates in a few frontline areas are that Russia is on the wrong end of an 8:1 disadvantage

    I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to fight in that meat grinder.

    I couldn’t agree more and the truth is that you can’t train the volunteers/conscripts/whatever that you don’t have.

    Give Ukraine what it needs and let them have at it.

    More and more politicians in NATO countries are coming around to this and maybe we’ll see frontline conditions ease as more Ukrainians are encouraged by getting materiel and a free rein in its use, rather than discouraged. The last six months have been a huge problem and Ukraine is now at an inflection point because the next six months will see US elections followed closely by winter. Ukraine needs to get busy recruiting and training

    3
    Caher
    Full Member

    this is a forum dominated by men of fighting age.

    Ahem…not sure about that.

    bikesandboots
    Full Member

    This was the thread.

    I’ll guess that whatever our age, our demographic mostly isn’t the one for fighting. That’s a job for other people’s kids.

    1
    andrewh
    Free Member

    This was the thread.

    It was interesting how that quickly descended into Tory-bashing with hardly anyone really considering that it was the right to vote them out if we wanted to that we’d be fighting for.

    Ultimately none of the rights we have in this country are god-given, elected leaders, a free press, an independent judiciary just wouldn’t exist without some people being willing to risk their lives to keep them so. Thankfully our grandparents did was what was needed when push came to shove, can those who said they wouldn’t fight look themselves in the eye and say they’ll just leave it to others to do it, or would rather we caved in to live under Putin’s regime?

    The Ukrainians appear to have just enough men with the backbone required to stand up for themselves but how different are the rest of them to those of us on here? How long can their army keep recruiting?

    Would I fight if I had to? I like to think I would, but it would be a scary thing to commit to, would self-preservation kick in and see me head off to New Zealand instead of doing what was right? I honestly can’t say but I hope I would have the courage to do it

    2

    this is a forum dominated by men of fighting age.

    If that were true there’d be much less political threads and spats. The problem with this place is too many bored, over-medicated, middle-aged men with time in their hands makes for bad mix.

    Nobody truly say what they’d do if faced with a similar situation with any degree of certainty, it’s an alien concept for most in the UK with the only frame of reference being third hand sources like movies and media.

    Self-preservation is a strong instinct so can fully understand why Ukrainian men might be trying to avoid fighting.

    I don’t agree with conscription, but I understand the necessity.

    2
    hatter
    Full Member

    Rumours starting to filter through that Ukraine is in the process of striking multiple targets deep inside Belgorod oblast tonight.

    If confirmed, it’s in character, they tend to not hang around.

    nixie
    Full Member

    Slightly surprising that they weren’t given approval with a delay till announcement giving tactical suprise.

    1
    natrix
    Free Member

    too many bored, over-medicated, middle-aged men

    That sort of comment says a lot more about you than it does anybody else………………

    3
    alpin
    Free Member

    too many bored, over-medicated, middle-aged men

    Don’t forget overweight.

    4
    squirrelking
    Free Member

    That sort of comment says a lot more about you than it does anybody else………………

    He’s not wrong though.

    4
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    Don’t forget overweight.

    I did feel a little under represented until you posted that.👍😁

    1
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    Nobody truly say what they’d do if faced with a similar situation with any degree of certainty, it’s an alien concept for most in the UK with the only frame of reference being third hand sources like movies and media.

    That certainly applies to me. Id like to think id do the “right thing” (even that can mean different things to different people) but in likelihood if I were of an age to be conscripted I’d probably wait till I was forced to fight rather than volunteer.

    If a member of my family had been killed by a belligerent state that might change everything in my head though. I just don’t know.

    As Mandalorian says, I don’t think most of us know how we would react till it happened.

    timba
    Free Member

    As Mandalorian says, I don’t think most of us know how we would react till it happened.

    Strangely, the most patriotic of folk often know exactly how they’ll react https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-avoided-the-military-draft-which-was-common-at-the-time-vietnam-war-2018-12?op=1

    Strangely, the most patriotic of folk often know exactly how they’ll react

    Everyone’s a gangster until it’s time to do gangster shit.

    The gangster shit:

    034d0000-0aff-0242-a9a2-08dad3a9da19_w1080_r0_s

    catdras
    Free Member

    Ukraine has been given the go ahead for strikes into Russia. Russia has also said that if F16’s being used by Ukraine are in NATO countries then they’re legitimate targets. Could be a pretty scary escalation.

    futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    Russia has said a lot of things 🤷‍♂️

    1
    hatter
    Full Member

    Russia has also said that if F16’s being used by Ukraine are in NATO countries then they’re legitimate targets. Could be a pretty scary escalation.

    If by ‘NATO countries’ they mean ‘Poland’ then they’re welcome to try.

    3
    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Part of me thinks that starting on NATO might end things somewhat quickly…

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    Is that statement aimed at deterring Ukraine from baseing the F16 outside of Ukraine territory and within a NATO member state?

    Alleging that they would be willing to hit an airbase sheltering an F16 if it was being used in the defence of Ukraine itself

    Bold and somewhat stupid thing to say iny armchair general viewpoint

    bikesandboots
    Full Member

    Can’t believe I’m defending Russia here, but it seems fair enough to target bases from which enemy aircraft are launching to attack you.

    Ukraine has said they’d store aircraft at foreign bases, to keep them safe until needed to e.g. replace damaged aircraft.

    3
    hatter
    Full Member

    Scratch one SU-57, Russian Air Defense let a sub-sonic kamikaze drone putter along through over 600KM through Russian airspace and hit one of it’s precious, rare 5th gen fighters.

    First 5th gen lost to enemy action ever, that’s got to smart.

    1
    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    They do seem to be grinding away at any radar / air defense quite well.

    https://x.com/igorsushko/status/1800179673076502789?t=47wteL_rNjNHNeVZnTuipw&s=19

    1
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    bikesandboots
    Full Member
    Can’t believe I’m defending Russia here, but it seems fair enough to target bases from which enemy aircraft are launching to attack you.

    I see what you are saying and this isn’t a dig at you mate. They (Russia) just have to deal with the consequences is all.

    I suspect Putin knows Poland, forget NATO for a second, is more than able to give Russia a bloody noise in response.

    I think he won’t call their bluff as it’s not a bluff.

    2
    bikesandboots
    Full Member

    it seems fair enough to target bases from which enemy aircraft are launching to attack you.

    Just to be clear for anyone reading, that was a general statement. There is no suggestion by anyone that Ukraine is basing aircraft outside its territory for use in attacking Russia.

    Andy
    Full Member

    Can’t believe I’m defending Russia here, but it seems fair enough to target bases from which enemy aircraft are launching to attack you.

    Russia knows its a completely empty threat, because on a practical level, the massive air defense all along the borders with Russia and Belarus, means any attempt would be pointless and embarrassing. So its an easy threat to make, for the international points scored, knowing they would never act on it.  Just like they said the same over US aid going through Poland,  Storm Shadow use, ATACMS etc etc.  Russia has also been incredibly careful not to directly poke NATO over this conflict. They are aware of the consequences.

    Andy
    Full Member

    Just to be clear for anyone reading, that was a general statement. There is no suggestion by anyone that Ukraine is basing aircraft outside its territory for use in attacking Russia.

    Sorry yes I read your post as Russia targeting Non-Ukrainian reserve F16 storage bases. Not operational bases outside Ukraine as I cant see that happening, as just as my post above, equally NATO is being very careful not to provoke Russia whilst slowly ramping support.

    1
    Andy
    Full Member

    I suspect Putin knows Poland, forget NATO for a second, is more than able to give Russia a bloody noise in response.

    Yes, the 486 (!)  HIMARS launchers Poland have ordered, in addition to current stocks, compared to the 40-50 Ukraine are currently using gives you an idea of the scale of Poland’s intention to be more than capable of dealing with Russian aggression, aside from NATO support.  That level of deterrence means it will never happen thankfully.

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