but an armoured vehicle is like a pipe bomb if the propellant or worse ignite or detonate, lots of heat and pressure released at once.

The theory is with the blow out panels and other measures is that most of the blast gets directed outwards giving better chance of survival. Its definitely something I wouldnt want to experience though. Chances are the poor sods will be needing medical care but at least would be alive to have it.

There’s a case of a Challenger having a charge explode in the breech, killing two but not all of the crew.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44861558

So the round stowage can cope with quite an explosion even within the crew compartment.

I used to work with a guy who did his national service (Austrian) in a Leopard crew, the advice that they got was if a Leo got hit by a sabot round, the engineers would just hose out the remains of the crew, slap a patch on the hole and it would be back in service the same day. They preferred serving in the light tanks/IFV’s as they were taught speed and low observity were life and you had a better chance of surviving in one of those rather than a big slower unarmored Leo.

It’s mostly internet weirdos

You do know youre one of us now right?

You do know youre one of us now right?

Yeah, nah.

On the CR2/Leo2, does the STW hivemind know if we give them any armored recovery vehicle types?

On the CR2/Leo2, does the STW hivemind know if we give them any armored recovery vehicle types?

The UK provided something.
About halfway down.
“a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles”

All the news said as part of the Challenger MBT package being donated there were some of the ARV’s for them too. Wiki cites Ben Wallace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_Armoured_Repair_and_Recovery_Vehicle

The UK provided something.
About halfway down.
“a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles”

Gotcha, Hard to know what the actual tactical picture on the ground is as to why they haven’t yet attempted recovery. Someone’s points about Arty is valid; no point a bunch of recce-mechs turning up and getting malletted as well.

Bit of a nerd on them, been to Bovington a few times, once with a full on package where I got to climb inside/allover some WW2 tanks (Churchill, Pz4, M4 Fury etc) and talking with the restoration team all day.

Also my next door neighbour has recently finished getting his ex-RAF Regiment Scorpion road legal and is working towards his full UK road licence for a tracked AFV. He traded an Abbot SPG for it, and was considering a Centurion but couldn’t fit it in his yard.

Oh there’s been Tweets on the Leo tracks being repaired, but the video doesn’t really show the background well so can’t really confirm that it is the one pictured disabled.

Bit of a nerd on them, been to Bovington a few times, once with a full on package where I got to climb inside/allover some WW2 tanks (Churchill, Pz4, M4 Fury etc) and talking with the restoration team all day.

Same, my uncle was in the RAC for 37 years, his last job as DCOS RAC involved being the liaison to the tank museum. I used to meet him for a brew when we’d go down for training on kit.

I also grew up on that camp; step dad was an armoured engineer did a few tours of the engineer training wing, then we mostly bounced between Tidworth and Germany.

Although I made different career choices there’s always been something special about armour. Also quite reassuring as it rolls up to support you when the locals are getting uppity.

Old man has never forgiven me for not going RE though. 😂

The CR2 we provided was with CRARRV, think the Germans did the same, reality is that the level of mines being used it’s got to be pretty much a nightmare for armoured to travel, would expect mine rollers to be deployed with the state of things.

What was sobering for me was an Aircraft museum in East Anglia that mostly consists of parts recovered from being trawled up in the North Sea or dug out where a plane has augered itself into the ground.

From tankfest you get a feeling for how bloody quick 60-70tons of machine can move with 1500+ horsepower. The Leo’s really are designed for speed, the C1/C2 are bruisers. All the T series are smaller but no quieter than the NATO tanks and having crawled over/in some of them, no comfort or ergonomics for the crews, 5ft5 with no space to move or stretch which must have an impact on how long a crew can remain inside buttoned up.

I come from a navy family, first generation not too serve, from the crap my Grandad and Great Uncles went thru, I’m glad I didn’t.

The CR2 we provided was with CRARRV, think the Germans did the same, reality is that the level of mines being used it’s got to be pretty much a nightmare for armoured to travel, would expect mine rollers to be deployed with the state of things.

Quite interesting the dispersal and directions of the armour in that image/video. There are a couple of rollers in subsequent images and they appear to have been detached by detonations. Also crossing flat, open ground gives the artillery time to triangulate grids for accurate fire, no doubt UKR factored losses into their plans, reality of this conflict isn’t it.

Being on the receiving end of an anti-armour artillery barrage while having mine strikes is probably high on the list of ‘what constitutes a shit day at work’ for armoured crews.

The story I’m hearing is that was contact well before it was expected and they weren’t ready for it, hence the bunch up.

Also

What’s probably happened is some artillery has come in. 1 rpund has a lucky strike. The other armor panics, whilst in a minefield, so other vehicles get taken out indirectly as they panic or manoeuvre to avoid the stricken vehicles amd make for the trees.

On the CR2/Leo2, does the STW hivemind know if we give them any armored recovery vehicle types?

The numbers vary. Sometimes it’s 12 tanks, in other reports it’s 14. 12MBTs + 1 recovery CRARRV + Titan/Trojan???

“…the donation of the Challenger 2 tanks will be accompanied by an armoured recovery vehicle designed to repair and recover damaged tanks on the battlefield…” Baroness Goldie

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2023-01-18/debates/0C57143A-8956-474E-A8DD-BB923CFF38FB/UkraineChallenger2Tanks

Universal truth: Cyclists act like they own the road 🚲🛣️😂pic.twitter.com/7TdQf2TLIZ

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 9, 2023

This is a good point. Russia seems to have authentic footage of only a single successful action against Ukrainian armour, suggests that this may be the only Russian success against NATO armoured vehicles. If this is the sum total of Ukrainian losses, it would be considered a highly successful offensive.

DO HAVE short range air defense protecting them from russian drones.
The reasons why this unit attacked without this essential assets needs to be answered by the Ukrainians quickly, and if it turns out there was careless or negligence then consequences must follow.
12/n

— Thomas C. Theiner (@noclador) June 9, 2023

Videos showing combat from where that pile of Bradley's were lost. pic.twitter.com/pu1hVSR4Mv

— Def Mon (@DefMon3) June 10, 2023

Jeez. I have heard of the fog of war and that is an example. I wonder if there wasn’t a Russian assult team with at missiles. Otherwise why the 50cal hitting the tree line..

If thats the feild where the L2 got hit. Which was alleged to be enough to the rear to be safe to move up in convoy?

Universal truth: Cyclists act like they own the road

Those nuns are made of stern stuff. Sister didn’t even flinch 😃

I still have everything parked in the “not yet beleive” pile but…

Rybar reporting major Ukrainian advances in the Velyka Novosilka area, with Ukrainian forces capturing Neskuchne and Blahodatne "almost without a fight", and moving on Urozhaine and Novodonets'ke. pic.twitter.com/4Xu2Z5YFEw

— OSINTtechnical (@Osinttechnical) June 10, 2023

Arguably as its from Rybar theres also a chance it could be disinfo to later claim the advances wete repulsed

Opinion piece by Peter Pomerantsev, Senior Fellow at John Hopkins University, giving a Ukrainian academics view on Russia, specifically Russias willingness to inflict violence.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/ecocide-russia-ukraine-war-kakhovka-dam-destroyed

I dont honestly know enough to agree of disagree but it gives an insight as to how the victim in all this views the topic discussed. And obviously its not just a Russian trait, inflicting violence, but its the only relevant one to Ukraine.

Reports that those pesky Russians have blown up a dam on the Mokri Yaly river in Donetsk. These reports coincide with a number of other reports about the UA making good progress on the front around Vuhledar.

Progress includes seeming confirmation that Blahodatne has indeed been taken and that a number of other settlements have as well. Seems to me that a significant factor in the Russian defence will be the willingness of their troops to stick around and fight when the excrement really starts to hit the fan. I suspect there will be some units willing to give it a go. But equally there will be others who suddenly remember there was something really important that they needed to do back in Moscow. And an army is only as good as its weakest parts..

Well it does seem that things are happening on the counter offensive

Also very interesting the new requirement for mecenaries to sign ‘contracts’ with the russian MOD.  Beed reporting they believe it is to limit wagner.   It wasn’t all that long ago Russia was denying Wagner had anything to do with them at all.

Being reported in our press like its a challenge for power.  Who knows if thats propaganda or not, but certainly an interesting aspect

Also suggestions Russia is setting up another sabotage opportunity by mining an ammonia chemical factor, which would play to their seemingly scorched earth approach when retreating

The Russian reliance on fixed defences may be a vulnerability if Ukraine can break through and create a big enough gap to get round the back of them.

Russia increasingly seeming to militarise and radicalise youth. There’s a good few reports of schools as well as youth movements.

1/ A summer camp in the Siberian city of Ulan-Ude has been turned into a 'military-patriotic' training centre for children. They are being trained to use automatic rifles, apply tourniquets to the wounded and lay mines, in another sign of the militarisation of Russia's youth. ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/XxUD82wO5A

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) June 12, 2023

Putin youth = Hitler youth.  He claims to be to be ‘denazifying’ Ukraine, but all I see is him nazifying Russia.

I have to say, if the UA reaches Siberia they should probably ease off a bit – or are those kids waiting for China ?

Russia increasingly seeming to militarise and radicalise youth.

When I was at school I was in the cadets and learnt to strip, clean and rebuild a rifle and a machine gun and fire said firearms on the range. I also learnt first aid, map reading, did an artillery course ending with live firing of a 25 pounder gun and learnt to fly.

I’m not saying it’s the same thing but some of the activities being described are very similar. There wasn’t political indoctrination in the cadets, that was a key part of Hitler Youth.

A mysterious video with the Chief of Intelligence of Ukraine, Kyrylo Budanov, appeared online where he stares at the camera in silence.

Followed by the words "to be continued, plans appreciate silence." pic.twitter.com/lM0wDQGxv5

— UNITED24.media (@United24media) June 11, 2023

Haven’t seen this posted on here yet. The Ukrainians are very good at the internet.

When I was at school I was in the cadets and learnt to strip, clean and rebuild a rifle and a machine gun and fire said firearms on the range. I also learnt first aid, map reading, did an artillery course ending with live firing of a 25 pounder gun and learnt to fly.

Changed days in the cub scouts.

When I was at school I was in the cadets and learnt to strip, clean and rebuild a rifle and a machine gun and fire said firearms on the range. I also learnt first aid, map reading, did an artillery course ending with live firing of a 25 pounder gun and learnt to fly.

Firearms activity for cadets is much more rigorously controlled these days.

Firearms activity for cadets is much more rigorously controlled these days.

I remember doing range control aged about 17 and nominally in charge of 12 cadets aged between about 13-16!
6 of those terrible cadet versions of the SA80 that would routinely jam at least once on every cadet.

I had a negligent discharge once. I’d cleared a stoppage in a cadet’s rifle but failed to check the chamber properly. Pointed the rifle downrange and pulled the trigger expecting a click on an empty chamber before re-cocking and instead a round went off. It properly shit me up, even though safety protocols dictated that you always always took an “aimed shot” (just in case the thing did go off!).

But yeah, looking back on it, it’s insane that I was more or less left in charge of a bunch of cadets and 300 rounds of live ammo. Discipline was good, we weren’t a total bunch of lunatics but even so…

I remember doing range control aged about 17 and nominally in charge of 12 cadets aged between about 13-16!

Cadet instructors, although dedicated and selfless are a liability when it comes to ranges. 😉😂

But yeah, the activities they’re allowed to do are much less than ‘back in the day’ as people get all kinds of upset about start screaming ‘child soldiers’ like we’re Sierra Leone.

Firearms activity for cadets is much more rigorously controlled these days.

I’m old so this was end of the 70s / start of the 80s. I did think it was a bit of a risk having an armoury in the school with probably 50 Lee-Enfields and 10 Brens secured to the wall with a chain plus ammo in a different room. Threat at the time was the IRA, they’d failed to blow up a pub in the town in the same campaign  as the Guilford pub bombing.  I did wonder what would happen if someone ram raided it and used a set of bolt cutters on the chain,

I did enjoy Skill at Arms at Bisley including running with a loaded Bren. That was supervised by real soldiers though so probably safe.

I’m old so this was end of the 70s / start of the 80s. I did think it was a bit of a risk having an armoury in the school with probably 50 Lee-Enfields and 10 Brens secured to the wall with a chain plus ammo in a different room.

You aren’t that far out of date. I was at school in the early 00’s and it was mostly the same, but with aforementioned terrible cadet SA80s plus a token LSW.

But don’t worry, we each had to stand to attention and confirm that we had no live ammunition on our persons at the end of the session, so all very watertight really.

I’m old so this was end of the 70s / start of the 80s.

Not the Hitler Youth (my Nan was in that I believe) or the Putin Youth, but the Thatcher Youth.

allowed to do are much less than ‘back in the day’ as people get all kinds of upset about start screaming ‘child soldiers’ like we’re Sierra Leone.

We were criticised by some international organisations sometime ago as the junior soldiers were (at that time) not that far removed from being like the SL child soldiers. I’m not currently athwart how they’re organised but if it has changed since I was a cadet (late 70’s) that is to be applauded.

The Russian reliance on fixed defences may be a vulnerability if Ukraine can break through and create a big enough gap to get round the back of them.

Thats what John Barnes said, theres only one way to beat them!!

Not the Hitler Youth (my Nan was in that I believe)

My Mum was too. My understanding was that membership was compulsory amongst schoolgirls. From what I heard it was no more than a girl guides outfit. Camping on Luneburg Heath, that sort of thing.