I did a bit of google fu to try and understand letter number designation and so on. Its not my stuff but a C&P:

T/-72/B/3

T: Indicates this is a tank.

72: This is the tank model. This number usually is roughly correlated to the year first introduced, although it’s usually only roughly around that time.

B: This indicates a variant designation, generally indicating an upgrade from the base model. Other letters are also seen.

3: This indicates further variant differentiation, essentially meaning an upgrade that is considered insufficiently large in scope to warrant it’s own letter designation. This upgrade is based on the preceeding variant designation, and usually the previous number designation ( B, B1, B2, B3).

I will also mention that since the T-72B3M exists, M is used to indicate a modernized version of an existing model, usually accomplished via retrofitting new equipment, however this is not always the case, as some upgrades essentially involve rebuilding the tank with only the chassis being relatively untouched.

Some variants will also have at the end; obr( year number). This is roughly similar to the M designation, but also identifies when the upgrade package was introduced to the proceeding variant ( note, obr designation means it’s a different upgrade then an M designation, if both are present).

So T-34 really means we are actually whitnessing time travel back to the 1930’s… They are obviously going to do well against DU and Sabot rounds…. 2 kills one shot?

So T-34 really means we are actually whitnessing time travel back to the 1930’s

Yes, I gather that the T-34 was a world-class tank back in 1942. It was apparently replaced by the T-54 starting in the late 1940s. Modern NATO tanks or anti-tank missiles would utterly destroy them.

With the muzzle velocity of modern tank guns practise rounds would be sufficient to pass through a T54, save some costs too.

save some costs too.

any modern missile is going to cost more than the tank it’s destroying…. missile fodder. It’s also worth noting that tank on tank engagement has been relatively rare so far in the conflict.

any modern missile is going to cost more than the tank it’s destroying

Practise apfsds rounds are made from steel, significantly cheaper than a DU tipped tungsten round.

The T-34 wasn’t an particularly brilliant tank, even in 1942.

Are they just to be used as decoys to soak up Ukrainian ammo? F All use for much else.

https://twitter.com/SputSyf123/status/1638502781425164288?t=xswiR8gA3LtB0x77T0vqnw&s=19

any modern missile is going to cost more than the tank it’s destroying…. missile fodder.

That’s not true. Even a T72 costs about $500,000, not sure what the upgrades cost?

A Javelin costs about $200,000 per missile, NLAW about £25,000.

An Abrams is something like $8 million.

Although a T54 can’t be worth much? Some have been upgraded with modern targeting systems that will probably cost more than a NLAW.

As others have pointed out on twitter, is it time to start supplying Ukraine with Leopard 1s and other obsolete tanks, seeing as they will still be more modern than what Russia is fielding?

supplying Ukraine with Leopard 1s

Haven’t they already supplied some?

martinhutch Full Member
Are they just to be used as decoys to soak up Ukrainian ammo? F All use for much else.

In many cases if one side in a fight has a tank and the other side does not then that tank will be consequential, even if it’s as obsolete as a T-54.

If the opposing side has any anti-tank missiles then that will change the balance obviously but it’s still probably better to have an out of date bulletproof vehicle capable of lobbing explosive shells around than to not have one.

(t55 is a for intent and purposes t54 with NPC protection)

That’s not true.

i was talking about t54/t55’s

Will the old T54/55 tanks guns do much to modern armour at all?

Obviously anyone on the ground / building / without armour is going to be vulnerable. 🙁

Haven’t they already supplied some?

Have they? I thought it was only Leopard 2s?

Have they? I thought it was only Leopard 2s?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/03/ukraine-germany-leopard-1-battle-tank-exports

matt_outandabout Full Member
Will the old T54/55 tanks guns do much to modern armour at all?

They might be able to do some damage to some modern tanks if they hit their rears or sides.

But they’ll probably still make a mess of a whole bunch of lighter AFVs, such as BMPs. Leopard 1s were also pretty lightly armoured too, IIRC.

Ah, fair enough, only 29 but a good start! I’m guessing there’s loads of those around, let’s start shipping them in by the bucket load!

Well, I for one never knew that the Leopard 1 was designed by Porsche!

I now have images of them being crewed by trained battalions of hedge fund managers as they go into battle.

Not a bad idea actually.😉

Will the old T54/55 tanks guns do much to modern armour at all?

ChrisL+1

Russia has very few tank guns capable of penetrating the front of a modern western MBT. Better guns as fitted to the T14 could be retro-fitted to T72 and T90 tanks, but up to a couple of years ago this hadn’t been evidenced. I don’t know if any have been found in Ukraine.

The other factor is that a western MBT can fire successfully sooner, i.e. at longer range, than a Russian MBT can because the sighting and stabilisation systems are so much better and, crucially, Russian armour is much weaker.
Western MBTs are often faster in reverse than Russian MBTs and can present their better-armoured front while making reasonable speed

Russian MBTs rely on add-on Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and Non-Explosive Reactive Armour (NERA) to bolster their base armour, but once it’s used it’s gone. Western MBTs use this much less because the base armour is so much better, but you’ll sometimes see it on the sides. The new Challenger 3 will use add-on armour modules as do other Western MBTs.

More importantly, are the Russian tanks fitted with BV’s?!

More importantly, are the Russian tanks fitted with BV’s?!

Nope, one of the many reasons their morale is so low. 😉 Even our trucks have them!

Mirage 2000 training

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/la-france-forme-des-pilotes-ukrainiens-sur-des-mirage-20230322

For more than a month and a half, about thirty of them have been receiving accelerated training on French fighter-bombers at the air bases of Mont-de-Marsan and Nancy. According to the Ministry of Defence, the training of the pilots themselves would not have started, only that of “air military personnel”

Both of the above are a bit optimistic, really.

The T54’s are likely being moved internally, just because someone has photographed them doesn’t mean they’re going to the Frontline

A Cargo Train loaded with Old-Soviet T-54/T-55 Tanks was reportedly spotted earlier today on the move somewhere in Russia; contrary to Initial Reports by Pro-Ukrainian Accounts there is currently No Evidence that these Tanks are going to the Front-Line in Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/FFtHN7upvQ

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) March 23, 2023

The story about mirage training is already denied

In a comment to Ukrainian media, the spokesman of the Air Force of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Yuriy Ignat, denied the information of the French media that Ukrainian pilots are allegedly undergoing training in France on Mirage 2000 fighters.- https://t.co/Gkx5IU9NAd

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) March 22, 2023

re t55/54’s could be going to training units perhaps.

The story about mirage training is already denied

The denial I saw related to actual pilot training, not necessarily training full stop on the 2000. (Quite what that means Im not sure)

Which doesn’t actually contradict the French report.

Maybe its closer to a Ukrainian team assessing the platform. Which makes sense to a degree as it in process of being retired for Rafales.

Shit.

Just saw a short segment on BBC with an embedded reporter and cameraman on the front line near bakhmut.
The whole segment is on BBC News at 6 tonight.

And they mean the front line. 2 shells from a tank landing a matter of metres away. Terrifying just to watch. The reporter was understandably crapping himself.

The area around them, obviously once woodland, now turned to matchsticks.

Absolute hell. Terrifying.

They could be stripping those older T54 for salvageable parts.
As im not actually a Russian tank mechanic I don’t know how many parts would be useful.
Either to keep T72 vintages in action, or make up a small force of working hulls with spares packages
Or Wang them out as mine fodder with minimalist crews from prisons

Ryan McBeth reckons they might be used as mobile artillery guns

Shit.

Just saw a short segment on BBC with an embedded reporter and cameraman on the front line near bakhmut.
The whole segment is on BBC News at 6 tonight.

And they mean the front line. 2 shells from a tank landing a matter of metres away. Terrifying just to watch. The reporter was understandably crapping himself.

The area around them, obviously once woodland, now turned to matchsticks.

Absolute hell. Terrifying.

BBC News – Ukraine war: The front line where Russian eyes are always watching
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65028217

Has to be said, the Hungarian government is a bit, well, full of sh*t heads.

Hungary says it would not arrest Putin if he entered the country.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/23/europe/hungary-icc-warrant-putin-intl/index.html

The article doesn’t explain that PM Orban is keen on the pre-WW1 boundaries of Greater Hungary, parts of which are occupied by modern-day Ukraine and Romania.
Hungary has long been concerned about Hungarian minorities in Ukraine, not helped by Ukrainian laws to reduce Russian influence (language, education, etc), but which affected other non-Ukrainian cultures.
PM Orban has also used vetoes in the EU and NATO to court his right-wing voters

Has to be said, the Hungarian government is a bit, well, full of sh*t heads

It very much is

So now our favourite, accidental death defying, ex insurgent leader has released a video directly criticising Putin himself and calling him soft and ineffective. Notwithstanding that Girkin’s odds of seeing out the month must have shortened considerably, it’s interesting that the ire is now starting to be directed directly at Vlad himself.

It’s probably not too much of a stretch to think that there are those in the Kremlin who are actively thinking about life post Ukraine and (probably) post Putin. One can assume that Girkin is a) still alive and b) able to post this kind of thing because he’s got some pretty influential protectors.

Still, he’ll probably be avoiding any buildings other than bungalows, as will Vlad I suspect.

If the Ukrainians do mount a successful counter offensive and make large gains quite quickly, I suspect things will hot up very quickly back in Russia..

Using a t55 as a spg does not seem the best idea.
SPG, mobile artillery will sit much further back from the front line. Will fire onto either grid boxes or walked onto a specific target by an observer.
Firing in a large arc with the barrel well elevated.
Even old tanks are front line units with flat trajectory weapons, you more or less point the gun at the target and pow, obviously over 1/2 mile plus you need to add offset as the round will be affected by gravity.
Maybe its the theory that any tank is better than no tank, but even a modern rpg will probably punch through older plate.
Plus the top will be very susceptible to pop up rocket and drone dropped munitions as neither of those existed 50 years ago so why engineer in something unnecessary, at the time

Not what you’d normally call a Self Propelled Gun, but perhaps useful as a gun which is self propelled, but without the capital letters? They’d be bugger all use against a modern tank but perhaps useful to relieve their modern tanks from other roles, to do infantry support etc.

Having said that, that goes back to logistics again- the tanks still need fuel and ammunition, the crew still need fed, they still tie up transport resources and all that other good stuff that the russians don’t have enough of and it seems would still suck at even if they did. I can definitely imagine that even very old kit can fulfil a useful role if deployed cleverly, but that seems to be a scarce resource too…

Maybe from a russian point of view just taking a hit that would otherwise have been a more modern tank is reason enough, and they’re being treated as a completely disposable asset that’d just be scrapped otherwise when they get round to it. Or, maybe it’s all hyped up nonsense and they’re just moving some stuff around but it does seem a weird time for it.

Using a t55 as a spg does not seem the best idea.

Especially given that later Russian tanks have better guns. The conventional wisdom a year ago was that Russia had untold thousands of old Soviet era tanks in storage. Even if these T55s are just intended for training or second line duty, it means that Russia can’t mobilize the huge numbers of more modern tanks they have in storage. Let’s face it, if you had to choose between pulling a T72 out of storage or a T55, you’d choose the T72.

Two theories:
1. The newer tanks in storage have been stripped for parts (probably stolen and sold on the black market).
2. The older tanks are lower tech and are easier to get running after decades rusting in a field.

3. Yet another facet to the information war for the home crowd. Train-loads of Russian military might steaming to nowhere in a video on Vladimir Solovyov’s Russian TV show

See also tactical nukes to be based in Belarus, soldiers and AA missile defences based in Belarus, announcements of massive increases in military manufacturing, etc.