Viewing 40 posts - 10,001 through 10,040 (of 12,282 total)
  • Ukraine
  • piemonster
    Full Member

    I believe @singletrackmind bagged the 10k post

    DrJ
    Full Member

    It’s given the Russian authorities something to beat the Ukrainians with, for sure:

    The Israelis have been using this excuse successfully for decades – bomb an apartment building (or a school, or a hospital) and then blame the Palestinians. Works for them, why not the Russiands?

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Strange how NATO are not sanctioning apartheid Israel & arming the Palestinians…

    thols2
    Free Member

    Strange how NATO are not sanctioning apartheid Israel & arming the Palestinians…

    I think you’ll find that the constant Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians means that Western countries don’t want to arm them. Attacking civilians is a war-crime. That doesn’t mean I support Israel’s policies, but it does mean that arming Palestinians is off the table and that Palestinian complaints about Israel are extremely hypocritical.

    futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    Let’s not derail the thread eh. 🤷‍♂️

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Not wanting to stray too far off topic, but can you clarify which of Israel’s policies you don’t support?

    https://twitter.com/protestencil/status/1556232568479137793

    thols2
    Free Member

    can you clarify which of Israel’s policies you don’t support?

    There seemed to be a genuine chance of a peace settlement back in the 1990s. Hardliners on both sides worked to destroy that possibility. The Israeli right wanted to keep building settlements and the Palestinian hard-liners refused to acknowledge Israel and wanted to keep fighting. That made it impossible for moderates on either side to work toward the necessary compromises that would be necessary for a peace deal.

    The result of that is that the Israeli right have made it impossible for Palestinians to form a viable Palestinian state and the Palestinian extremists have made it impossible for Israel to accept a one-state solution. The extremists on both sides benefit from continuing the hostilities. So, what we have is constant Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians and constant Israeli retaliation for those attacks. The right-wing government in Israel has used those Palestinian terrorist attacks as justification for draconian military crackdowns against Palestinians. They are extremely careful about how they do that so they can argue that they are responding to terrorist attacks, not attacking civilians. On that narrow legal ground, Israel has a strong argument, the Palestinian attacks are gross violations of human rights. However, looking at the larger picture, Israel has used that as a pretext for making it impossible for any Palestinian state to function, they simply don’t seem to care at all about the plight of Palestinian civilians. So, what I think is wrong about Israel’s behaviour isn’t really answered by a list of policies, it the strategy of making it impossible for a Palestinian state to succeed, along with the network of polices that contribute to that.

    I think that Western human-rights organizations are right to condemn Israel for that, but it’s also important to condemn Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli citizens. Israelis see a double-standard where Israel is criticized but Palestinian attacks against citizens are ignored. That makes Israelis convinced that they are in a battle for survival and genocide would be the result if they relaxed their vigilance. (They have the Holocaust to point to as evidence of this.) When people are that afraid for their survival, they are not going to compromise or negotiate. That’s why it’s important to recognize that Palestinian attacks against Israeli citizens are terrorism and that supplying weapons to Palestinians would be an incredibly stupid policy.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Not wanting to stray too far off topic

    You clearly are wanting to.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Maybe if the US supplied Palestine with tanks and HIMARS the Palestinians would not be reduced to attacking civilians. Note also that the attacks on civilians produce far fewer casualties than “surgical” attacks on Palestinians.

    joelowden
    Full Member

    And , indeed, let’s not get into how the Israelis ended up in Palestine to begin with…………

    Caher
    Full Member

    Why not start a new thread on Palestinian Israeli conflict?

    nickc
    Full Member

    In an attempt to get this back on topic

    Interesting Twitter post

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Why not start a new thread on Palestinian Israeli conflict?

    Let’s not, but it is interesting to consider why Ukraine has become such a cause for many people when horrors have been happening for ages and nobody sold cakes for refugees at the WI, or asked around for furniture for refugees houses, or put up flags in their gardens, or filled their FB page with supportive comments.

    thols2
    Free Member

    Maybe if the US supplied Palestine with tanks and HIMARS the Palestinians would not be reduced to attacking civilians. Note also that the attacks on civilians produce far fewer casualties than “surgical” attacks on Palestinians.

    So, you’re saying it’s ok for Palestinians to attack civilians? Saying silly things like that is why Israelis don’t trust other countries to help them in the face of threatened genocide.

    thols2
    Free Member

    it is interesting to consider why Ukraine has become such a cause for many people

    I think a large part of it is because it’s rare to see such a black-and-white case of aggression and attempted genocide and to see the victim successfully fight back.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    So, you’re saying it’s ok for Palestinians to attack civilians?

    No, I’m not saying that, and nor did I write that. I am saying that it is perverse to fixate on that single aspect without considering the wider context, as it is perverse to blame Ukraine for resisting invasion from civilian areas.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1556298504070381569?s=20&t=GzY7vEFfTgPYf29q5ikdMQ

    Seems optimistic, any able to counter this?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    I think a large part of it is because it’s rare to see such a black-and-white case of aggression and attempted genocide and to see the victim successfully fight back.

    There are countless examples of naked aggression (depending on which propaganda you choose to believe) and Ukraine fought back as a result of training and arming by NATO. So it’s a bit chicken and egg.

    thols2
    Free Member

    I am saying that it is perverse to fixate on that single aspect without considering the wider context,

    I explained my view of the wider context. An incredibly important part of the situation is that Palestinians have been attacking Israeli civilians for many decades and Israelis perceive a double standard where people ignore crimes by Palestinians but criticize Israel for responding. If you want Israelis to trust in a peace settlement, it is essential that terror attacks by Palestinians are acknowledged as terrorism, not brushed aside.

    thols2
    Free Member

    Ukraine fought back as a result of training and arming by NATO.

    Ukraine is now receiving a lot of NATO gear. When Russia invaded, their equipment was mostly of Warsaw Pact origin. Ukraine did this mostly on their own, that is remarkable.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Ukraine did this mostly on their own

    After years of training by US and UK “advisors”. Regardless, I don’t see why that makes Ukraininan refugees special? I don’t think it’s (e.g.) the Rohingya’s fault that they weren’t able to fight back?

    (p.s. I am not pursuing the Palestine discussion here)

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Attacking civilians is a war-crime.

    As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which in 2022 has “settlers”.

    These often armed civilians are used as instruments of conquest, in clear violation of international law – the Geneva convention specifically prohibits the movement of civilians into occupied territories.

    Israeli governments have repeatedly ignored condemnations from the United Nations, an organisation specifically set up in pursuit of global peace, for moving settlers into occupied territories.

    When armed civilians move into your home and the world sits back and does nothing, beyond expressing disapproval, taking the matter into your own hands seems a logical response.

    nickc
    Full Member

    The double standards of just our own government are clear to see for everyone. There was a puff piece in this weekends Guardian about a wee town in the south east that had taken in hundreds of Ukrainian refugee families, and while all were heart-warming stories by themselves, the obvious (not to be too on point about it) whiteness of everyone was hard to miss.  It’s difficult to look past the ability of Ukrainians to get on an airplane to Gatwick, when Eritrean, Somali and Sudanese are risking their lives in teeny inflatables.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which in 2022 has “settlers”.

    China effectively has them in certain regions where the undesirable natives are corralled up and suitable replacements imported.

    thols2
    Free Member

    As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which in 2022 has “settlers”.

    You might want to take a look at what China’s been doing for the last few decades, plus Myanmar, plus numerous other countries.

    When armed civilians move into your home and the world sits back and does nothing, beyond expressing disapproval, taking the matter into your own hands seems a logical response.

    I’m adamantly opposed to the Israeli settler policy, it’s appalling and does nothing to make Israel more secure. However, launching rocket attacks against Israeli civilians is still a crime, regardless of the settlements being effectively an invasion of Palestinian territory. If you believe that it’s ok for Palestinians to respond to Israeli actions with terror attacks then Israelis will say that it must be ok for them to murder innocent Palestinians in retaliation. I’m extremely pessimistic that any settlement can be reached because I think Israelis have seen that other countries ignore terror attacks against Israel and conclude that there is no point in even trying to reach a peace deal. The only way that Israelis will ever be persuaded differently is to recognize terror attacks against Israeli citizens as crimes and condemn those responsible. If the West won’t do that, Israel will never sign any peace treaty.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    terror attacks

    I’ve yet to see an example of using the word “terrorism” do anything other than expose the prejudices of the writer.

    nickc
    Full Member

    When armed civilians move into your home and the world sits back and does nothing

    Hamas avowed “covenant” is the destruction of Israel, when armed terrorist extremists continue to attack civilians, it can hardly be a surprise when there are continual entrenched disagreements and a mutual distrust that either side would be able to stick to any agreement. In polling both sides generally see further violence as the best means to end the conflict the with 55% support, whereas negotiation and peace gets only 21%.

    I’ll condemn the violence of successive Israeli Govts, but I don’t hold up much hope in a change in policy

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    I think a large part of people taking in Ukrainian refugees vs those from African countries isn’t ‘whiteness’ it’s that everyone is hoping/assuming the Ukrainian refugee crisis is temporary and they’ll be returning home ‘soon’, that’s not the case for the majority of African refugees. That doesn’t mean they should be any less welcome but it’s a very different commitment when you’re opening up your home for them to stay. I don’t think it will be long before there’s problems with the Homes for Ukrainian refugees scheme – I expect a lot of people that initially signed up thought it would be for a few months.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Hamas avowed “covenant” is the destruction of Israel

    Why do you think that is? And when was the last time that you heard an Israeli politician talk of “Palestine’s right to exist”?

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    I’ve started a new thread for comparisons between Palestine and Ukraine…

    So back to Ukraine; found this interesting:

    With the events of Maidan in 2014, the Western camp prevailed, while Putin retaliated by taking Crimea and waging war in the Donbass. The developments marked the beginning of Ukraine’s “annexation” into the Euro-Atlantic economic sphere, described by Mousseau and Elisabeth Fraser in a 2014 report entitled The Corporate Takeover of Ukrainian Agriculture, which gives an account of the redoubled push by Western financial institutions to “throw open the nation’s vast agricultural sector to foreign corporations.”

    From the West came arms and money in the form of assistance packages from the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. As usual, the cash was strongly tied to reforms that Ukraine was required to implement, all under the banner of fiscal restraint and austerity. Also according to Mousseau, the drive in Ukraine to privatize the land market is unprecedented in recent history. To limit unrestrained privatization, a moratorium on the sale of land to foreigners had been imposed in 2001. Since then, the repeal of this rule has been a main goal of Western institutions. As early as 2013, for instance, the World Bank provided an $89 million loan for the development of a deed and land title program needed for the commercialization of state-owned and cooperative land.

    Furthermore, Western banks are imposing the optimization and consolidation of agribusinesses into large entities at the expense of small producers, who still constitute the majority in the country, with the goal of increasing “added value,” and, in the words of a 2019 World Bank paper, “accelerating private investment in agriculture.” The same report states that “a 30-percent productivity increase in agriculture could result in an additional 4.4 percent Ukrainian GDP growth in five years, and 12.5 percent growth over ten years.” It is safe to assume that the growth rates of private agricultural producers were expected to see far greater increases.

    thols2
    Free Member

    Edit. Moved to the other thread.

    futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    An interesting discussion on the effect of sanctions

    Tanking economy

    TLDR / Russia is up the creek without a paddle

    pk13
    Full Member

    Anyone getting a bit twitchy about the nuclear power plant?
    Lots of warning from internal voices

    inkster
    Free Member

    Reading that excerpt that you posted jivehoney, it reminds me of a documentary I watched called “Life and Debt”, about how the world bank treated Jamaica in the 70’s/ 80’s.

    They made them rationalise their economy by slaughtering all of their dairy herds and forced them to import powdered milk from the United States, (ironically, said powdered milk was heavily subsidised by the US government.)

    It’s not ‘The World Bank’, it’s the First World Bank, who’se logo should be a vampire squid sucking on the face of humanity.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Huh, thats an actual thing

    Vamp Squid

    piemonster
    Full Member

    😬

    futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    Antonovka bridge attacked again, apparently taking out Russian repair vehicles/equipment. Also the road across the dam has been cut, though this is a short span over the river lock, and probably an easy repair. But just as easily cut again. Pontoon ferry access only for the time being.

    thols2
    Free Member

    thols2
    Free Member

    https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1557005280017260547

    There is speculation that Ukraine used anti-radar missiles for this attack. Would explain the long range.

    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1556751670402596865

Viewing 40 posts - 10,001 through 10,040 (of 12,282 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.