Viewing 40 posts - 4,921 through 4,960 (of 8,602 total)
  • UK Election!
  • 1
    Klunk
    Free Member

    I guess they are worried about losing Montgomeryshire if they ditch Williams :?

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    I guess they are worried about losing Montgomeryshire if they ditch Williams

    Well the ballot papers are already printed and his (and the Tory Party’s) name is on it. All ‘ditching’ him would really mean is he’s an independent. Tory voters who want to vote for him personally  could and tory voter who want to vote tory know that even as an ‘independent’ he’s an independent that they know is a conservative. Due process can happen – at the end if he’s found innocent and just exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party. Even if he’s not he’s still a tory in all but name both to the constituency and to the party as a whole in opposition  – so It should be an easy decision really.

    It would be a whole other kettle of fish if the parties were neck and neck and one seat here or there could be all it takes to get the tories over the line. But in the current climate it could not matter less if they lose mongomeryshire or not. But in their handling of it they’re turning it into something to lose Richmond and Northallerton over.

    So carry on I say.

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    This all things me of Aristotle. Well it doesn’t but if I get that name in there it makes me seem clevererer.

    Is an intelligence person still intelligent if they *choose* to use that intelligence to support a stupid position, political or otherwise?

    Or…

    Is it a case of stupid is as stupid does and however intelligent you are, if you come across as stupid due to *choosing* to support a stupid position… are you in fact, well, stupid?

    1
    kelvin
    Full Member

    exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party

    I know there’s a separate thread for this… but what’s happened is wrong even if they didn’t know the date was nailed on… as insiders they would know it was being seriously considered by the only person with the power to make the decision… if they placed the bet, they should lose the whip if elected (and lose support from the party during the election). Full stop. No need to prove they “knew” 100% the date was set… that’s a very Boris Johnson framing.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    I know there’s a separate thread for this… but what’s happened is wrong even if they didn’t know the date was nailed on… as insiders they would know it was being seriously considered by the only person with the power to make the decision… if they placed the bet, they should lose the whip if elected (and lose support from the party during the election). Full stop. No need to prove they “knew” 100% the date was set… that’s a very Boris Johnson framing

    I’m not saying whats right – just saying what the Tory party could do if they were even half good at being the Tory Party. Even if they were just half good at being Johnson’s version of the Tory Party.

    3
    TiRed
    Full Member

    This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/

    Not your typical website for balanced election news, but the comments are worth a read too. Not much of balance on the rest of ConservativeHome, who believe David Gauke is the devil incarnate, and things would be much better if the moderates would just go away!

    1
    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Well the ballot papers are already printed and his (and the Tory Party’s) name is on it. All ‘ditching’ him would really mean is he’s an independent. Tory voters who want to vote for him personally  could and tory voter who want to vote tory know that even as an ‘independent’ he’s an independent that they know is a conservative. Due process can happen – at the end if he’s found innocent and just exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party. Even if he’s not he’s still a tory in all but name both to the constituency and to the party as a whole in opposition  – so It should be an easy decision really.

    I don’t know, look a the Rochdale by-election. The major partied withdrew their support for their candidates and people didn’t vote for them. So it could have a real effect.

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Without competency, we are just b*stards.

    sums up the last 14yrs quite well.

    kormoran
    Free Member

    This all things me of Aristotle.

    Well they are certainly arses, if that’s what you meant

    1
    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/

    Blimey, the writer woke up and chose violence 😮

    He’s right through.  People will hold their nose and vote Tory if they’re competent.

    A rising tide lifts all boats and all that jazz. You can be a “b*****d” or incompetent, but not both.

    The trouble is it’s very hard to be a competent “b*****d”.  You can’t offer deregulation and high quality (water companies), or low taxes and quality public services (just about any department).  At some point in the middle you find a point where you’ve got a level of public services people want, a tax burden they can afford, and decently functioning economy.   They’ve delivered none of those, and all Rishi’s plans either sound like “we’re in a hole but we’ll keep digging” or short term fixes. At least some of Labours manifesto sounds like it’ll still be ongoing in a decade and not canceled by Christmas.

    Also, what they seem to miss is they could just not be “b*****d” in the first place.  If they genuinely believe they’re the competent party, then why does that have to be balanced out by having your nose in the trough and a string of maleficent policies?

    1
    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Did you even read my post? There was no mention of Portillo or Corbyn and what I wrote was factually correctly, Labour have moved rightwards under Starmer, by definition moving away from the extreme left, whilst the Tories have moved towards the far right.

    I did, yes. I was addressing a couple of posts, yours where you talk of Labour finally getting votes as they’ve moved away from the “extreme left” and another where someone described Portillo as “far right”.

    The fact is Corbyn wasn’t “extreme left” by any measure and the centre ground you speak of was roughly where 2010 Tories stood. That’s my point. Overton window, shifted.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    As for the F1 money, it’s not about whether it personally enriched them. Any organisation with anti-corruption policies will include anything that benefits the organisation. It’s all just as wrong.


    @alanl
    I’m not sure what your point about Sturgeon has to do with anything, Brown was the Chancellor for the Exchequer. Not the Labour Party treasurer, leader or even Deputy.

    1
    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    And even if they try to play the “innocent until proven guilty” card

    I said a few pages ago, he’s as good as admitted it. The innocent until proven guilty in reframed words is ‘yes, I did it but can anyone actually PROVE it?’

    3
    Daffy
    Full Member

    TiRedFull Member
    This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/

    Not your typical website for balanced election news, but the comments are worth a read too. Not much of balance on the rest of ConservativeHome, who believe David Gauke is the devil incarnate, and things would be much better if the moderates would just go away!

    They’re 100% right on Farage – he wants the office, but not the job.  You’ll end up with another BoJo/DTrump – people utterly incapable of governing/building, just pointing holes at what they (superficially believe) is wrong and dictating orders without any real consideration or understanding of the HOW that’s required to get from here to there.

    2
    kelvin
    Full Member

    Farage is currently busy warming us up for a Trump/Putin deal… isn’t he. He’s probably happy sacrificing votes to be part of that.

    8
    PrinceJohn
    Full Member

    I did ask on the local reform group that if Farage got elected, do they think we’d be an ally of Russia & we’d send troops to Ukraine to help them defeat Zelensky, or would we become a Russian territory overseas & be governed by Putin.

    It went down well

    2
    Caher
    Full Member

    Farage v the Daily Mail – isn’t it great when wasps fight.

    5
    Coyote
    Free Member

    We got a Reform leaflet through the door this morning. Guy who posted it through is someone I’ve know for years. Thought he had some strange ideas but always seemed a decent kind of bloke. Never had him down as a complete thunderc**t.

    alanl
    Free Member

    “What is £1m worth in 2020 money?Is there any evidence that Brown or Blair pocketed the cash personally and bought a yacht with it? “

    No, but it bought Political leverage, and Ecclestone got his way with Formula 1 allowed to advertise tobacco, when it was one of the principles Labour had set out to do, that was the point when I realised there isnt a lot between any of the Parties. Of course, the gap has widened,and these useless Tories have made it a habit rather than an occasional thing, but it showed that Saint Tony was not as clean as he made out.

    “ I’m not sure what your point about Sturgeon has to do with anything, Brown was the Chancellor for the Exchequer. Not the Labour Party treasurer, leader or even Deputy. “

    Both denied knowing anything about their Parties finances.
    I fail to see how Brown could not have known of a £1m donation from one person. Same with Sturgeon who denied knowing anything about the finances, when her own husband had lent the party £1000s, and a lot of money had gone from a separate account. If you are that high up in a Party, there is no way such facts can be hidden from them. They either wantonly did not take any notice of party finances, or they lied. To not show any interest in the Party finances does not seem viable to me, just gossip in the office would know of a very large donation, or our Party hasnt got any money left.

    bails
    Full Member

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1805189903426166937?t=mTlzQsg3Zta5ukQiFfaEIA&s=19

    NEW: Keir Starmer says he opposes the teaching of “gender ideology” in schools

    What does this even mean? Why even say it?

    Edit: a bit of an answer

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24407159.keir-starmer-gender-ideology-not-taught-schools/

    During interviews with broadcasters on Monday morning, Starmer was asked if he would scrap the proposed ban on teaching young people in England about transgender identity in school.

    “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.

    Are they just going after JKRs vote? Seems like a bit of a waste as whatever they do won’t be cruel enough to trans people for her to be happy.

    1
    kelvin
    Full Member

    What does this even mean? Why even say it?

    Why say what? Would need to see the actual quote, and the questions/discussion that lead it.

    Labour announced that they were going to ditch the Tories’ nonsensical “guidelines” around this. Journos bound to be asking questions though, and the Telegraph are absolutely obsessed with what’s in your pants and any discussion of us not all being the same in schools.

    EDIT: thanks for the edit… I’m still none the wiser.

    Oh… my own edit… Labour previously announced they would “review” not “ditch” the guidelines… ie kick into the long grass the other side of an election to try and avoid discussion of it in an election campaign (cowardly but wise).

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    FWIW it’s OK to use the word bastard here on  STW and there’s no need to be trying to avoid the swear filter (which is against the forum rules).

    nickc
    Full Member

    That’s my point. Overton window, shifted.

    Given that both parties are talking about social housing, and energy price caps, and selective nationalisation of things like railways and increasingly the power generating/utilities with Labour suggesting a UK owned power generating ‘board’ I don’t think you can say that the Overton window has shifted all that far to the right, despite the performative cruelty of this group of Tories – who’ve talked a far-right appeasing game, but managed to actually achieve very little.

    3
    pondo
    Full Member

    Of course, the gap has widened,and these useless Tories have made it a habit rather than an occasional thing, but it showed that Saint Tony was not as clean as he made out.

    Goodness, that comes as a huge shock. Don’t tell the Mail or it’ll be all over for Labour.

    3
    Klunk
    Free Member

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    The polls seem to have settled again now. I wonder if Reform have topped out?

    I see Farage is down in Maidstone today and still defending his pro Putin stance.

    Id normally say he’s just courting controversy as that’s what he does but I can’t help but think he has cocked up here. I still don’t see it damaging his support much but it’s good to see him outed on this issue.

    1
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    AI does lead to some… Amusing images! GQ2HO8xWcAAyQF5

    2
    ThePinkster
    Full Member

    I’ve joked about it recently but with all the near professional fuckwittery going on at the moment I am actually coming to believe that the Tories have planned to lose from the very beginning and Sunak has tipped off his hedge fund buddies about it, along with all the former hedge funders in that shambles of a government that has so successfully screwed up our lives for the last 14 years.

    alanl
    Free Member

    I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them), but Reform above the Tories, no way. Almost 1 in 5 saying they’ll vote for Reform will not turn out to be anywhere near real. If they are lucky, they’ll get 5%. Lib dems probably about right at 12%, they are an irrelevance in the bulk of places. Tories around 25-30%. Greens at 5%, that means around 2 million will vote for them, cannot see that, they got 2.61% in 2019.
    2019 was this – Tories 43%, Labour 32%, Libs 12%, SNP 4%, Greens 2.6%.

    Why have Labour only gone up 10% since 2019? I think the polls are wrong, I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.

    1
    squirrelking
    Free Member

    During interviews with broadcasters on Monday morning, Starmer was asked if he would scrap the proposed ban on teaching young people in England about transgender identity in school.

    “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.

    The more he talks the less I like him and what he stands for.

    I suppose teaching kids about homosexuality is “ideology” as well?

    And before someone jumps in to defend him, there’s politically expedient non-answers (eg. We will review such policies in due course blah blah blah) and just nailing your colours to the mast as he has done here.

    What does his view have to do with this anyway? I thought Labour policy was determined by the NEC and not just made up by the leader?

    1
    squirrelking
    Free Member

    @alanl

    Yeah but what you said was:

    Brown denied all knowledge of a £1m donation, he was Chancellor at the time, so should have taken a glance at Party finances occasionally

    My question was why SHOULD he have taken a glance at party finances when that wasn’t his job in any way, shape or form?

    I agree it’s more likely than not he would have known but not in any official capacity, hence the difference between him and Sturgeon.

    I’m going to leave it now otherwise it’s just me being argumentative

    politecameraaction
    Free Member

    Did the £1m from Ecclestone put my wife and countless other NHS staff at enhanced risk?

    This is just whataboutery. Let’s just say it was shitty and bent and shouldn’t have happened, and they gave the money back because that was obvious.

    I don’t know how many people tobacco sponsorship persuaded to start or keep smoking, but however many it did – that would have cost the NHS.

    skooby39
    Free Member

    Why have Labour only gone up 10% since 2019? I think the polls are wrong, I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.

    I’m thinking the same.  Have said before on here but I’m thinking hung parliament with Tory protest votes for reform evaporating on the day in swing seats.

    A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians. In global terms there’s not much difference between Labour and the Tories with both a whisker off centre, and little variance in their stated plans if they are elected.  This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism.

    somafunk
    Full Member

    This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism

    You mean the national media pile on wouldn’t let corbyn bring in the type of government that has progressive policies such as the Nordic model

    1
    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them),

    It’s not a left to right sliding scale.

    People can jump from Labour straight to Reform without having to slip through a decade of elections voting Lib Dems and then Tory.

    That should be especially obvious in light of Brexit and the collapse of the “Red Wall”.  Traditional “working class” Labour voters are / were pissed off with the system being stacked against them so voted for whoever offered them the answers they wanted to hear.  Someone to blame and some easy solutions that aren’t “things will continue to be a bit shit, taxes will rise and any incremental gains will be slow and only really cumulatively visible in another 14 years time.”

    Part of the political problem in this country (and FPTP) is it presents a fairly binary choice where the left has been arbitrarily “progressive” and the right “conservative”.  There’s the re-branded SDP doing a sort of unpopular Reform-Left, but no economically conservative Greens for example.  If the greens were a true single issue party rather than having to have frequently unpopular opinions on drugs, wars, economics, etc they would probably get more votes and actually put pressure on both parties rather than just being the party of a post Corby rout from Labours Left that happens to like renewables.

    *Usual caveats about populations and elections being won by targeting hypothetical groups that represent wider populations characteristics.

    1
    Tom-B
    Free Member

    To pick up on one small point re green vote share in 2019. Green’s lost quite a lot of voters to Corbyn led labour.

    National vote share and seats are very different things. Labour could well end up with a 200 seat majority with less votes than in 2019. Such is the way of FPTP.

    1
    slowoldman
    Full Member

    I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.

    Most of the polling sites ARE predicting well in excess of 120 seat majority.

    3
    skooby39
    Free Member

    Nothing to do with the media, Corbyn was a well known conviction politician prior to becoming Labour leader and his position and political views have always been clear.  He’s someone everyone has a view on, whether you agree with them or not! The country just wasn’t willing to move to a Nordic type system overnight. The Labour MPs grasped this quickly hence the multiple no confidence votes they initiated.

    4
    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians.

    I’ll be the first to put my hand up and say I have zero time for the Tories but there are millions that feel similarly angry.

    As for that anger not being due to the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories and instead an issue of their critics, I have to really disagree on that point. They, the Tories, are reaping what they have so eagerly sown.

    Being as objective as I possibly can, I can’t think of a British government so utterly incapable of good governance in modern history.

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