U.S. Presidential Election 2020

But aren’t we getting a bit off topic. The reality is what has happened in this election is more about domestic politics, with foreign policy being an outcome?

Sorry – I’ll drop the debate.

i find it utterly frustrating tho that people cannot see how malign the US is

The bases are as much to threaten the countries they are in as they are to protect them.

Nope. They are there because, after WW2, the U.S. led democratic countries realized they were better off setting up a stable international system where disputes weren’t constantly turning into wars. Japan and South Korea both rejected communism and joined the Western alliance. There is resentment about U.S. bases, but both countries are liberal democracies and neither country wants to leave the U.S. led system and take their chances with a Chinese led system. Donald Trump gave Japan and South Korea a perfect opportunity to kick the U.S. troops out. Neither country took that opportunity because they want those bases there.

That’s not to say that the U.S. is perfect, but if you think Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuala, etc. are better, you are seriously deluded about the state of the world.

This history lesson is great but a bit off-topic. Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?

I’d much rather have the US in charge than Russia or China.

The problem is there is clear western political resistance to Russia or China being in charge, we have just let America trample all over international diplomacy without barely a whimper of resistance.

I would rather a European style socially responsible democracy be the leading world light, rather than Americas selfish bigotry.

MSP – in truth so would I probably but it isn’t going to happen.

TJ would you rather live in a world dominated by the US or in one dominated by the Russians and Chinese?
Another question, It’s generally assumed that the world since 1945 has developed more in terms of rules based free trade, a general trend towards democratically elected governments, greatly increased rates of health and a decrease in mortality rates and a growing respect fir the rights of women. Do you think the US has helped or hindered?

The U.S. has often behaved terribly and supported dictators around the world. However, the reality is that the U.S. supported international system is far preferable to a system dominated by Russia or China.

To paraphrase Churchill;

Many world superpowers have been, and will be, in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that America is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that America is the worst of world superpowers – except for all those other world superpowers…

TJ – I absolutely do see how malign the US, but I still think the democratic ideals it claims to represent, even if they are not lived up to, are far better than the alternatives.

I would rather a European style socially responsible democracy be the leading world light, rather than Americas selfish bigotry.

By, say, some sort of closely aligned Union of European countries, you mean?

(sorry, someone had to)

To be fair TJ has said he’ll drop it now so we should stop debating this point 😀

Edited – to dropit

thanks timborg

This history lesson is great but a bit off-topic. Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?

I don’t think you can make that call until many, many years later. There are examples of wars that should have been avoided and turn into disasters, and wars that were avoided and turn into disasters. Not aware that for example Kennedy started a ground war? Bay of Pigs maybe but that’s debatable.

.

Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war.

He’s still got eight days. Give him a chance.

I can imagine the Trunp claiming that he was the best at being President as he’s been impeached more times than any other President…it’s the sort of dumb shit he comes out with.

Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?

In spite of a load of rhetoric trying that very thing including threatening to bomb cultural sites in Iran which would have been war crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/trump-could-still-start-last-ditch-war-iran/617530/

Looks like they’re trying to distance themselves from/throw Rudy under the bus

Looks like they’re trying to distance themselves from/throw Rudy under the bus

Could be risky, he will have a serious amount of dirt on Trump.

Not aware that for example Kennedy started a ground war?

He’s the guy that introduced U.S. combat troops into Vietnam as “advisors”. Lyndon Johnson just kept on with Kennedy’s policy.

Did Obama actually start any new ground wars or just keep trying to stabilize the Middle Eastern inferno that was already raging?

Could be risky, he will have a serious amount of dirt on Trump.

Yes but he’s a confused and deluded old fool. Trump is now asking his people not to pay RG’s $20,000 per day legal fees because it got him nowhere and, separately, the New York State Bar is launching an inquiry about removing RG from its membership.

Either way, RG is finished and him coming up with some “dirt on Trump” isn’t exactly news nor is it going to save his shredded reputation. The entire world has dirt on Trump, much of it dirt that Trump shovelled there himself.

“Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?”

The plan was for him to start a war in 2023, the year before the election and after he had stoked up racial tensions in the US to levels worse than the 60’s.

Then you would have seen the proper coup. He would have hoped to have more of ‘his generals’ in place by then. The Police would be even more in his pocket and the militias would be larger than they are now and even more angry.

The Police would be even more in his pocket

And the courts.

Unrelated, has anyone mentioned Rep gains in control of redistricting yet?

I’m not sure if Giuliani actually said this, but it’s worrying that it wouldn’t be surprising if he did.

Rudy Giuliani thinks Game of Thrones was a "famous documentary about fictitious medieval England"https://t.co/JlrYfczNRJ pic.twitter.com/NzKhEvLvlJ

— Andrew Lawrence (@ndrew_lawrence) January 14, 2021

The entire world has dirt on Trump, much of it dirt that Trump shovelled there himself.

I am looking forward to Putin leaking his dirt on Trump – prostitutes in a classic honey trap is the rumour

He’s the guy that introduced U.S. combat troops into Vietnam as “advisors”. Lyndon Johnson just kept on with Kennedy’s policy.

This isn’t correct, the ground war started with the introduction of ground troops in 1965. LBJ did not continue Kennedy’s policy and there was a notable shift after the first year. The Gulf of Tonkin incident happened after Kennedy’s death as well. But since we live in a post truth era crack on.

I am looking forward to Putin leaking his dirt on Trump – prostitutes in a classic honey trap is the rumour

Not likely since it would damage the ability to blackmail others if you release the goods as soon as the person is no longer useful.

I think he did actually say it :-/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rudy-giuliani-rally-game-of-thrones-b1786613.html

Is he just trolling us? The modern world is scary and confusing.

Either way, RG is finished and him coming up with some “dirt on Trump” isn’t exactly news nor is it going to save his shredded reputation.

Someone on twitter made the rather good point in that RG would be able to get the best book deal ever. I doubt he would be short on cash.

““I was referencing the kind of trial that took place for Tyrion in that very famous documentary about fictitious medieval England,” Mr Giuliani said on Tuesday.”

He thinks it’s a documentary, like our own Dominic Raab. If they both like documentaries so much maybe they should hunker down with a few episodes of the World at War.

LBJ did not continue Kennedy’s policy

The “Domino Theory” dated back to the Eisenhower administration. Kennedy also believed in it and sent thousands of U.S. troops as “advisors” because it was feared that South Vietnam falling to communism would lead to all of S.E. Asia falling. Johnson escalated it into a major conflict, but the first U.S. troops were deployed before he took office.

He thinks it’s a documentary

No, he doesn’t. It’s obviously a tongue-in-cheek description that he even calls fictitious.

Whilst humour has been a useful tool in combating fascism, Rudy’s influence is clearly waning. Continuing to portray him as a clown character only undermines the severity of his very real actions. We shouldn’t be gleefully mocking him and looking for ways to twist his words to make him seem silly. We should hold him accountable for the lies he’s told and the destruction he’s caused.

It also misses the real story that Rudy is clearly trying to backtrack and weasel his way out of a statement that knows may be construed as sedition when his day in the dock comes.

We should hold him accountable for the lies he’s told and the destruction he’s caused.

Yes. And also mock him ruthlessly for being a hopeless ****up.

Superficial,

Whoosh.

If you look on thedonald.win they all seem to love him more than ever, despite the fact he’s hyped many of them up to commit federal crimes then thrown them under a bus when it didn’t work out.

Truly a cult.

RobHilton, I was thinking just yesterday that Trump’s model for himself is perhaps Goldfinger.

Jim Jones.

Interesting observations on how the FIB will try to undermine the right wing groups by getting them to spy on each other. Kind of an extension of the ‘do you want a pardon? sting.

Also some imteresting observations on how the security services miss calculate the dangers posed by military veterans.

Goldfinger was actually pretty effective though. I mean, he was actually rich, had a plan, carried it through. He only failed because of Bond appealing to Pussy Galore’s better nature*.

I’m trying to think of a suitable analog to Trump in a Bond villain and the only one that came to mind was Elliot Carver in Tomorrow Never Dies. He was all about ego and self and controlling the narrative.

I am looking forward to Putin leaking his dirt on Trump – prostitutes in a classic honey trap is the rumour

Why? Everyone knows he cheated on his wife with Stormy Daniels. Trump and his supporters don’t care.

This history lesson is great but a bit off-topic. Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?

Except in the USA.