… resulting in no sleep for any of us apart from much loved two year old who invariably ends up hogging our bed by sleeping sideways and punching and kicking us both, presumably to ensure we’re both still there.

My take on this is that he needs to cry for three – five minutes before having a parent come in and comfort him, at which point he goes to sleep on his own bed. I know. I do it twice a week when mum’s out.

But no, mum won’t let his brain be wired badly by leaving him screaming, causing irreversible damage to his future prospects.

Honest opinions sought please, preferably from other parents.

Our 2 year old won’t sleep in her own bed at all and her 5 year old sister isn’t much better, so think yourself lucky!

Point being that neither of us have had a decent night’s sleep in two **** years. It’s destroying us. If he came into our bed and slept for four hours that’d be fine – no problems with co-sleeping. But he doesn’t. He just thrashes about all night long and doesn’t sleep during the day either.
End of tether.

he needs to cry for three – five minutes before having a parent come in and comfort him, at which point he goes to sleep on his own bed.

Yep.

Suggest to your wife that you go to his room and sleep there – and let her put up with him.

Meant to add, when mum goes out for the night twice a week, I let him work himself into a lather for about three minutes, go up and comfort him and he instantly falls asleep. Every time. Mum thinks this is torture for a small person waking up alone and abandoned. She’s well read in psychology and kids’ literature. Constantly quotes stats and evidence at me as if it’s the **** bible.

Honestly, wits end. He’s doing his dinger upstairs right now and I’m expected to sleep on the floor next to his cot so he “knows there’s someone there”. Just no way. I need my sleep.

Crumbs. I’m repeating myself like some kind of head wound trauma victim. Sorry. (I have been one of those in the past after falling off my bike. Not saying if I was wearing a helmet or not).

Not saying if I was wearing a helmet or not

I think you might find if you were wearing a helmet a few years back none of this would be happening!
Perhaps you could start by burning all the books and putting a filter on the internet…. sound proofing his room?

She’s well read in psychology and kids’ literature

I know bobbins about psychology but I’m very well-read in children’s literature. Where is the Green Sheep?, That’s not my Snowman, The Gruffalo’s Child etc. etc…

On a more serious note, we started to go down the same route as you, when our son was two-and-a-bit. He was ill and coughing himself awake several times a night, waking us both up and meaning one of us had to traipse through to his room and comfort him back to sleep. In the end we got fed up and brought him into our bed just to save us from having to get up each time. About a week later we realised that even though he was mostly over the illness, this was the start of a very slippery slope, and no-one was getting any sleep, so we just put him back in his bed and did as you suggest – let him cry for a bit and then settled him.

But no, mum won’t let his brain be wired badly by leaving him screaming, causing irreversible damage to his future prospects.

This being STW, I’m assuming you’ve requested peer-reviewed sources for this type of assertion? 😀

Also, you say that she’s well-read in this that and the other – I initially took that to mean ‘qualified’, but do you mean she’s just read a bunch of trendy parenting manuals?

Why not suggest a trial*? You’d tried the ‘sleeping in your bed’ approach, and the result is that no-one’s getting any sleep, it’s putting a strain on the relationship, the sprog is picking up on the bad vibes and is therefore being unsettled at night, and round and round you go.

How about suggesting that for a week or two you try your method, to see if it works. You could even compromise and go in to comfort him as soon as he starts crying rather than waiting – but in his own bed, not yours.

*I don’t mean try to drown her, and if she survives burn her for being a witch.

My understanding is that practically everyone in France does this. My peer reviewed evidence that this isn’t massively problematic: spend a fortnight camping in France. You will very quickly learn that there are few problems having a pitch next to a French family with kids, but if you’re next to the average English family that indulges their kids, it’s a waking nightmare. When you hear grown people negotiating with toddlers you know they’re just making their own problems.

Solve Your Child’s Sleep Problems: A Practical and Comprehensive Guide for Parents17 Apr 1986
by M.D. Richard Ferber

1p on Amazon. It sorted my kids out nicely (many years ago).

My four year old, although he goes to bed very, very nicely with no bother at all, probably wakes up 2 out of 3 nights in the early hours, goes downstairs for a single fish, then comes and gets in with us. He has a staying in his own bed all night reward chart, with a bloody Lego set sitting next to it waiting for him to complete it, but he still says he doesn’t really want to finish that chart! The problem we had/have with ours is that my wife does not wake up when a child gets in the bed, she’s completely oblivious to it. I tried putting them back in their own beds for a while, but all they learnt was that it’s a 50/50 chance of Dad being there to put them back so it’s definitely worth a try! If he’s too wriggly I go and sleep in his bed, but it’s a racing car bed so that’s ok. Doesn’t really help the OP I suppose.

Every kids different.

But. 1 You need to speak to the wife. Having your kid sleep with you isn’t normal or right for any of you.

2. If he doesn’t sleep that well, are you feeding the wrong stuff in the day time ie E numbers etc. Or is there an underlying health issue?

3. Be firm and fair. All kids have patterns of not sleeping well, and wanting m&d in the night. They are also very manipulative little buggers and know how to get what they want. At 2yrs they fully understand what you are saying. In the day time we would tell Jnr FD that he had to sleep in his bed all night as making us all tired etc. And use bribery too. Ie sleep all night in your bed and you can have a freddo in the morning.

Its all about breaking the pattern of what they think is normal. Some times that did mean one of us having to stay in his room whilst he fell asleep.

As you already do that yourself you need to get the wife doing the same. At the moment Jnr is in charge, not the adults.

Our boy is 15months old and has been sleeping through the night from 12weeks. When we started we let him cry for 15-20minutes before he fell asleep. By about day 4 he was asleep in seconds after being put to bed and apart from the odd wobble when he’s ill has been that way since. We may have just got very lucky and got one who likes to sleep.

We don’t own a parenting book. I go with the view that it’s a pretty common sense thing that people have been doing successfully for thousands of years. No rule can be applied to every child so go with your gut as you know them better than anyone.

But. 1 You need to speak to the wife. Having your kid sleep with you isn’t normal or right for any of you

disagree. Ours (2 of them) slept with us on and off until they were about 10. No problem there and they are normal well balanced children as far as I know. We have friends who had their children in bed until about 12

but.. they slept (most of the time). They could also be put in their own beds if we wanted to

When ours weren’t sleeping well I put them in their own bed and held their hand while they went to sleep. It never took more than 5 minutes and then I could get back to bed. I listened to a radio program once on this topic where people had to be taught to let them children cry themselves to sleep as in the long run it helped everyone

I’m with you op and I absolutely hate those parenting books as it prevents you working out what is best for your family.

I feel your pain O.P.
My boy is 2 and a bit,gets in with us and has never EVER slept through the night!!
I’ve told my missus that she indulges him too.When I put him down I’m “grumpydada” and he wants mammy to “pat” him.It is tiring and maybe one night in the week I’ll camp on the spare bed and make sure my missus gets a lie in.
Due to small flat,house move & renovation etc we’ve all been camped together since he was born,however the bedrooms will soon be complete and I’ll be packing the little wriggler off to his own room.Woohoo.
When he was tiny I let carry him on for 2 minutes before comforting, being a tofu munching liberal any more is cruel…. 😉
Now all he needs is a story and to tell him the long list of people who love him and he’s snoring.Then between 2&4a.m. ,he’ll jump out of the cot like a tiny ninja……the shitehawk. 😀

Same as Leffeboy here. Ignore the books – go with your gut. Mrs Wally and myself both quite like a bit of company from the wee one and a chat. Often all three of us read for an hour or so in the same bed and chat about the day ahead and just gone.

During the week ours was at nursery and literally we saw him for two hours in the evening before bed.

He sleeps to circa 3am then sneaks into our bed. Hes learnt that shouting mummy! And running like a stampeding elephant gets him put back. Help!

Leffeboy – but it isn’t working for them. The wife sleeps through and wakes up refreshed, the OP doesn’t sleep. So therefore not good for them.

The key thing here is that for every book you read that tells you to do it one way, there will be another telling you the opposite.

Same with parents. For every kid that slept through after 12 weeks, there’s another that never really settled until they were 5 years old. Everyone has their own guaranteed solution but they’re statistically only working with one or two individuals. Thinking all babies are the same and will conform is a rather daft way to look at it, when you think about it.

Key thing is to speak with your wife, try different things and work out what is best for all concerned. My boy wouldn’t sleep by himself until he was 2 years old, and my wife got very upset after being told to leave him to cry. We found a solution that worked and enabled us to get a good nights sleep, despite fellow parents informing us we were “making a rod for our own back”. In the end, at the age of two he just decided he’d rather sleep in his Thomas the tank engine bed and that was that.

We had similar problems with our number 2, tried reward charts and everything. Live in a flat with poor soundproofing which didn’t help.

On approach to her 6th birthday we told her it was the law that when children turn 6 they had to sleep in her own bed and if she didn’t the police would come and pay a visit. It worked, yay, she’s seven and a bit now and we sleep great.

I feel a baby should learn an element of independence early on. Look after yourself in order to be on top form to look after baby. I want to allow our wee guy cry a good 10-15 mins when he should otherwise be sleeping. Also when he rolls onto his tummy and gets stuck, but my wife feels a bit too upset to wait and will generally come to the rescue. We’re working on an ok balance though.

Kids sleeping in parents bed until 12?! The phrase ‘mummy daddy issues’ springs to mind…

+1 treemagnet

Relying on the incomplete evidence of one set of parents and their “solutions” for their children won’t get anyone anywhere.

As with many things, trial and error is often the path to happiness rather than rigid rules.

The trouble is if he’s used to be being attended to staright away and used to being taken in your bed then things are gonna invariably get worse before they improve. need to break the habit. although it wont help if you have differing parenting methods to the mrs.

i remember hearing/reading somewhere years before we had kids to never, under no circumstance let them into your bed at night. we adhered to this, even when at times weve considered it might be nice if one of us was away or whatever, but as a result they just dont have the concept in their heads.

however we had similar issues with waking and screaming, and wife would dart in there to settle her. after a while we tried to ignore it but she used to scream so hard she’d spew up, then we’d be up changing her and the bedding etc. eventually i came up with a plan to camp in her room just to be on hand if it got to vomit stage, but i wwould let her scream and scream without comforting. first night horrific, but got better each night and by day 5 i was back in my own bed and baby was sleeping through.

Leffeboy – but it isn’t working for them

Agreed. My point was related to the comment that sleeping with parents is bad. As has been said by many here, what works for one person doesn’t work for others. You have to do like many here and work out your own solution to making it work

edit: I tried to find the radio program that I heard but it was 5 years ago now so impossible to track down. However it was referring to Australia where ‘apparently’ normal tactic is to let them cry and I found various stuff including this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22966034, which is report suggesting that in the long run it makes no difference to how the child turns out. So do what you can to get to sleep 🙂

This is what the OP’s wife needs to read:

Every time. Mum thinks this is torture for a small person waking up alone and abandoned.

A baby, perhaps, but not for a two year old. He’s easily old enough to be told. That’s your bed, this is ours – if you get scared we’ll come help you but we have to have our own sleep.

I wouldn’t say ‘let them cry’ whatever – you need to figure out when they’re genuinely upset and when they are just throwing a tantrum because they haven’t got their way.

tie the mother to the bed insert earplugs.. the kid will cry itself to sleep no harm done.. get out of the cycle of letting it sleep in your bed or it ll still be there aged 18 and that ll be a bigger burden for it to carry..

Don’t just leave him.. talk to him then leave him.

Peope don’t talk to their kids enough generally.

We read somewhere that it takes somewhere between five and ten days/nights to break a habit and change behaviour.. Choose a method, stick to it very strictly, and you should be OK..
After a couple of aborted attempts with our first, we found the willpower to deal with it and he slept through ever since..

Our second child was much more stubborn, we were much more exhausted, and another problem is that, if you’re the parent that does the night time stuff, leaving a child to cry can fully wake you, meaning you might not sleep again until 20 minutes, half an hour later.. If the child is waking a lot, this can steal a LOT of your sleep, if you react instantly to the crying, you can be up, settle the child and then be back in bed asleep in just a couple of minute..

For whatever reason, our second child did not respond to any method,, meaning no-one got a full night’s sleep until we seperated at xmas.. When you add up the sleepless nights with both kids, that’s more than 5 consecutive years without a single good nights sleep..

The second one has just started to sleep through maybe 3 nights out of seven, but he still wakes at 5am, raring to go which is in no way compatible with our regular routines..

exhausting doesn’t even come close

We did the controlled crying thing with our 18 month old, like you we’d indulged him
So when he wakes up comfort him tuck him in and leave, let him cry for 5 mins then come back again, then let him cry for 10 mins, then 15 mins, then 30 mins. They invariably pass out after that !
Its tough on you- feel terrible and your sleep is broken and they can work themselves up
But after a couple of weeks, (with no giving in)
But mum and dad have to agree and both stick with the routine
Your kid will be sleeping like a baby (what a misleading phrase), 4 years old and he’s still really good, illness aside
When his brother came along we were much stricter from the start and he’s now 2 and a very good sleeper

Its tough at first but life is better when parents and kids are well rested; better moods, behavior and ability to focus

Seeing as this is stwdadsnet, I guess I should give a mum’s perspective. I would agree with the mother. I still co-sleep with my girls 4 and 7, their Dad has his own room, everyone is happy. My kids are smart, happy, independant and well adjusted. The older one chooses to sleep in her own bed often these days and sometimes sneaks in to sleep with her Dad. It’s only in the western world that we feel the need to suppress instinct and natural behaviour to conform to the work ethic and so called civilised ideals.

You need to sort this out with your wife, the first problem is between the two of you, and the lack of agreement.

I’ve seen it happen with friends, both intelligent and one being a psychologist, ultimately lead to divorce and much unpleasantness for all involved.

It’s only in the western world that we feel the need to suppress instinct and natural behaviour to conform to the work ethic and so called civilised ideals.

You know what? I get really sick of being told I’m ‘conforming’ to some absurd received opinion without having thought it through myself. Feel free to post your experiences but try not to casually insult everyone else please!

as said above, both you and your wife need a common approach to this and stick to it or it just wont work as your 2 year old is getting a different message from each of you.

try and find a compromise approach that you are both happy with (I know easier said than done!) and then both stick to it.

Child has lack of sleep – grumpy child.

You have lack of sleep – fall asleep at the wheel, die, child is left father/motherless, atomic death etc.

I am with you on this 100%. Let the child learn to comfort itself. I have few memories of being two. None of them involve any trauma due to sleeping in my cot on my own.

molgrips, I’m not trying to insult you, bring up your kids how you like. I have thought it through and I don’t feel the need to conform to others ideals of how and when my kids should sleep. Thats my point, if you are happy with your choices then thats great.

BTW the problem here is nothing to do with the child: it’s the OP blaming his wife for his disturbed sleep! Nice….

Your tone is very passive-aggressive, dbcooper!

What like yours? I just posted my thoughts, I can’t see how I have blamed you or instructed you in how to live your life in any way.

My experience as a mother is that everybody has an opinion that they like to foist upon you on what you are doing wrong, when in fact I have been happy with my choices from the beginning and my kids are well. Hence my point about not feeling the need to conform, because almost everybody told me to leave the kids to cry, do the hoovering while they wail and generally go agaisnt my own instinct. I did not conform and so far nobody is dead. I’m not suggesting you do the same, I’m suggesting you have the strength to choose whatever you want to do, it seems as though you have, so good news.

Toddler Taming – a great book and a great bloke – used to get lectures from him in Oz when I did a chunk of a paediatric rotation there.

Kids that age do often respond to training. They learn quickly and then forget the trauma. So you have to find a way you are both happy with which doesn’t screw up your life and relationship and intimacy together.

OP, say to your partner “if every time I woke up in the night, you gave me a cuddle and pint of beer, do you think it would stop waking me at night?”