Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 45 total)
  • Two step chain wax?
  • jkomo
    Full Member

    Having had to fit a new chain after every link on the road bike was seized, I’ve ordered some of Daz’ wax (glf wax) my old plutoline I’d heated way too much and burnt off the good stuff. Having picked up a one person slow cooker from a charity shop I’m looking forward to worry free bike storage. Anyway could I use the old plutoline and burner as a cleaner for muddy and salty chains and cassettes, then put in the new stuff- or would it contaminate. One problem with running it too hot is it doesn’t dry to the flakey consistency but in this case I’d want it to run out of the parts anyway before I use the fresh wax on a lower heat.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I think it would contaminate.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Adam Kerin from Zero Friction Cycling suggests a two pot system for some people who regularly ride in harsh conditions.

    Start as you are with one pot, but once that starts to get contaminated, set up a second one.

    Then, drop a mesh or grill in the first pot to keep the chain off the bottom where the silt is.

    Chain goes in the pot, but don’t agitate it. Once the chain is up to the same temperature as the wax, lift it out and slosh it about in the second pot, then hand to dry.

    The idea is that you dilute the level of contamination in the first pot before then exposing your used chain to the second pot.

    poolman
    Free Member

    Welcome to the gif wax club.  I swish my chain in the no nonsense degreaser, then in another container meths, then the slow cooker.  The silt in the degreaser is minging, I d keep the process simple and recycle the old chems.  I also do a few chains at a time while the wax is hot.

    This winter with the rain I do it weekly, or just when I hear the odd squeak.  V therapeutic process.  The park link tool is a bit of a luxury if on offer.

    jkomo
    Full Member

    I’ve got a load of isopropyl alcohol, could I use that as the degreaser?

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    No need to degrease. Just put dirty waxed chain in hot (recently boiled) water and agitate gently. DO NOT PUT IN SEALED CONTAINER. All the dirty wax will float to the surface. Repeat another time if necessary. Dry the chain (hairdryer) and dunk in GLF. 

    I would definitely not use Putoline and GLF as components of a two pot system. One product or the other. As above for super super clean chains and to get the most out of the wax use a two pot system but with the same product in both pots. 

    Personally I just hot water bath once every 5 or so waxings. I wax every week at the moment as all my rides are in the pissing rain! Obviously Putoline lasts way longer between waxings in wet conditions. GLF or in my case Molten Speed Wax is super clean though. 

    finbar
    Free Member

    No need to degrease. Just put dirty waxed chain in hot (recently boiled) water and agitate gently. DO NOT PUT IN SEALED CONTAINER. All the dirty wax will float to the surface. Repeat another time if necessary. Dry the chain (hairdryer) and dunk in GLF

    Interesting… I assume that’s just GLF/MSW though? I can’t imagine boiling water doing much to touch Putoline, or does it?

    tjagain
    Full Member

    finbar – it will melt it and it will float off.  Melting point is under boiling point of water

    You will still be left with a very thin layer on the chain tho I think – ive never tried it

    finbar
    Free Member

    Right, I’ll try that next time.

    Funnily enough I just waxed two new chains this afternoon, with a meths/iso/soapy water degrease first and a new batch of Putoline after my old panfull got too mucky. It’s amazing how much nicer it all is when fresh.

    jkomo
    Full Member

    Would you get away without drying if you dunked in IPA after the boiling water, as it would evaporate off quickly.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    I expect that’s fine. TBH it dries off pretty quickly anyway, I just shake mine about while it’s still hot. I suspect the advice is there so you don’t get spattered in hot wax dunking a damp chain in it. I just pop mine on top of the solid wax and then switch on the slow cooker and it dries while the wax heats up. I suppose there is also a chance that water gets trapped inside by the wax and goes rusty on a cheap chain. 🤷‍♂️ I wipe with IPA also anyway and that is good enough for between waxes when not doing a reset with boiling water.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Anyway could I use the old plutoline and burner as a cleaner for muddy and salty chains

    No. Use a cleaner to clean.

    Re de-greasing, last time I waxed a newTB chain I shook it in white spirit. It may have left a residue but I think that may have helped the wax adhere to the metal. That was in June and it’s still riding quietly!

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Sorry, random Qs, didn’t seem worth starting a new thread.

    I think I’ve overcooked my Putoline, how do you dispose of it responsibly?

    Anyone using GLF wax for mixed conditions gravel? It won’t be solid mud plugging just spring/summer/autumn showers and water splashes. Bike is too pretty for Putoline 😂

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Your local tip will have a oil and grease disposal point

    chaos
    Full Member

    I’ve been using GLF for road, gravel and  MTB in a mix of sandy/muddy/etc conditions.  With sand/sandy dry soil/general road dampness, it’s great.  With continual water and mud a lot less so.  I think the wax within the rollers is still there ok but the outer protection gets worn off pretty quickly and can start to look a bit rusty fairly quickly but still a while before you start hearing too much graunchiness.

    I’ve started topping up occasionally with a bit of Squirt lube in wet weather on the assumption it’s wax based and won’t dissolve out the GLF wax so negating the need to re-wax too often.  That’s working out ok as quick to do, but the sooner GLF man (@Daz?) comes out with the drip on wax option the better.

    It does sound like putoline copes better with winter and to be honest, if I was doing a lot more MTB in the winter I’d probablyjust  have an ordinary lubed chain on rotation for that season with Peaty’s or similar (like the old WickensandSoderstrom stuff).

    molgrips
    Free Member

    There’s no way I’d use wet lube over wax in the winter. I’ve had wax get noisy after four or five wet rides, but the chain is still largely free of grit. You can check this by twisting a link between your fingers. You can hear when there’s grit in there. With wet lube this happens after the first big muddy puddle, then you’re riding around with a grit filled chain, and your lube is basically doing nothing from then on. Somehow, with Putoline this doesn’t happen, at least for me. That’s why my chains last so long.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Yeah I’m totally on board for most purposes and my heavy duty winter bikes will still be Putoline, just worried a hot wax mighten’t last as long as Putoline, but even replenishing after one or two mixed conditions rides would be better than gummy accumulations of Fenwick’s which is what I currently have 👍

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    My experience of GLF is that it doesn’t last anywhere near as long in the wet as Molten Speed Wax so I switched back. It does smell lovely but unfortunately that’s just not enough of a reason for me to keep using it!! 😂
    New chains need degreasing and UFO clean does it in 5 mins ( including SRAM chains which require about 10 white spirit/meths/IPA baths. ) After that though just the odd hot water bath and a wipe with IPA between waxings does the trick.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    Would you get away without drying if you dunked in IPA after the boiling water, as it would evaporate off quickly.

    The easiest way is simply to stick it on a cheap foil tray and blast it with a hair-dryer. I don’t see that the IPA would remove the water from the chain, so why do it?

    Start with a new chain. Clean first with white spirit then IPA – see the zero friction cycling web site – then wax it. I wash it down as part of post-ride bike cleaning then, if it’s all a bit grimy, I swish it around in a pan of boiling water, dry it as above, then re-wax. It doesn’t take very long and it’s easy and effective. The most irksome bit is cleaning the factory grease out of the chain in the first place.  

    Zero Friction cycling is pretty good on ‘how to?’ stuff, though slightly obsessive:

    https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au

    Daz
    Free Member

    Finally getting to see what’s happening on here, I lurk and don’t log in. GLF and putoline aren’t compatible in a regular basis for a two pot system, waxing a previously putoline chain once won’t really harm your wax and the old putoline will be melted off in your wax pot. Putoline is a softer wax with a higher oil content, it doesn’t have the friction modifiers we add either so misses out on improving the surface of the chain.

    drip on lube is one we are still working on, we have an excellent version that works well in UK conditions however it is too flammable to post. We are working on a new version at the minute along with a couple of different hot melt waxes.  Best way to get us is through wattsapp and the details are on our website

    Cheers for the support so far folks, it is great to listen to your feedback

    stevious
    Full Member

    IPA is pretty good for drying stuff – being miscible with water so it makes a mixture with a much lower boiling point.

    Personally I wouldn’t bother with it in this case – I just give the chain a hot water rinse then a good wipe with a towel. It’ll either just hang to dry overnight or left on the wax while it’s heating depending on timing. Haven’t noticed any rusting from the latter process.

    jkomo
    Full Member

    So, hot water rinse, are we talking a kettle of boiling water or put it on the hob in a pan and boil?
    Thanks all, I’ll ditch the plutoline, the GLF is going in a nice clean mini slow cooker.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    I bring a pan to the boil then dunk in and swish with the heat off. Tip away water and repeat. Pan gets a wax residue which comes away with hot tap water and soap. I don’t use that pan for cooking mind. 

    @daz If you find any time to log in again soon I have a couple of questions if I may? 

    When you say “improves the surface of  chain”, how so? Does your wax get better the more you use it? If so, what about if the chain is “reset” using the hot water method? 

    poolman
    Free Member

    I just use an old pan to boil water and simmer chain in.  V happy with glf, I ve just waxed one today so will be silky smooth tomorrow’s ride.  One thing to note, my quicklink is becoming a slowlink, after maybe 20 waxes it’s fiddly to reconnect so I ‘ll bin it as have a few spares.  I just batch up old chem mixes in a 5l container and take them to recycling.

    Daz
    Free Member

    To answer a couple of questions above, hot water rinse is really only needed if your chain is very dirty, I don’t recommend it as normal practice, especially if you live in a hard water area as limescale can form on the chain surface.

    Rinse with hot water won’t have any impact on how the surface improvements of your chain using my stuff and some other waxes who use a similar additives.

    We worked with Queens university Belfast on the additives to our wax, working on the quantity, quality, size etc. I have some really interesting images under high power microscope showing the improvement in chain surface over time.

    cogglepin
    Full Member

    Sorry for the thread hijack but can you use a deep fat fryer instead of a slow cooker as I have an old one sat in the shed doing nothing.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Deep fat fryer runs the risk of over heating and breaking down the wax. Even rice cookers will probably damage the wax as they are either heating or not but their in setting can be too high.

    I used to use Puroline in a chip pan as the wire basket was really useful but I think I’d over heated it as some point as it always remained soft and sticky after that point.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    ☝️that.

    When I contacted Putoline to ask what temp they said 70-80C. Any hotter and some of the additives will evaporate.

    Also a DFF has the potential to start a fire if left unattended at too higher setting. I can’t remember what the flashpoint of Putoline is but a DFF will easily achieve it!

    cogglepin
    Full Member

    Thanks chaps, it can go to the tip then.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Yeah, I definitely hear a lot of crackling from the DFF with Putoline, even when set at 80C.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I use a DFF.  It does not crackle at all unless the chain is wet.  I do not leave it unattended.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I use a DFF. It does not crackle at all unless the chain is wet. I do not leave it unattended.

    This is before chain even goes in! i.e. when wax is just melting.

    To be honest though I’d just assumed I had knackered the wax a long time ago when I though hotter was better 🙄

    stevious
    Full Member

    So, hot water rinse, are we talking a kettle of boiling water or put it on the hob in a pan and boil?

    I pop it in a jar and pour boiling water on and give it a swirl. If it’s really grotty I’ll repeat once or twice.

    As Daz says, it’s not normal practice – just if the chain gets graunchy. Rarely happens on the orad bike for me but the gravel bike chain does need a rinse every now and again. I’m using MSW.

    J-R
    Full Member

    I think using a DFF is fine – no need for a slow cooker. Putoline say to heat the wax on a gas burner, so a DFF will be no worse than that, unless you set it to a high temperature.

    When I contacted Putoline to ask what temp they said 70-80C. Any hotter and some of the additives will evaporate.

    Non wax additives may be important for motorbike chains, but I don’t think they are a big deal for bike chains. Also DFFs can be set for about 70-80C if you want to go for the slow melt/low temperature approach.

    I can’t remember what the flashpoint of Putoline is but a DFF will easily achieve it!

    Putoline quote the flash point as greater than 200C, so a DFF will NOT easily achieve it.

    Also the flash point is not the temperature that a liquid will burst into flames. It is the temperature at which it will give off enough flammable fumes to be ignited by a source of ignition (such as a burning match) near the surface of the liquid. So while it may be a good idea not to leave hot Putoline unattended, a whole chain of major failures would be necessary to start a fire.

    Crackling noises are just droplets of water boiling. If you only heat the wax to about 80C probably some water from a damp chain will not get driven off. If you run the DFF at about 100C you will evaporate all the water from the chain in a few minutes and not get any crackling noises next time you melt the wax.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    For the boiling water rinse, I’m considering a goose neck kettle and do that in the bike, over the chain ring, pedalling forward, before it comes off the bike for waxing.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    Putoline quote the flash point as greater than 200C, so a DFF will NOT easily achieve it.

    I beg to differ, when I first started using Putoline I bought a small DFF from Argos and turned it up high (ish) to start with because, like you say, the instructions on the Putoline  tin say put it on the stove. I can’t remember exactly what temp it was but it was not up full. Anyway, I turned my back on it for a few minutes while I did something and when I looked up it was alight. Fortunately closing the lid of the fryer extinguished it and I keep an extinguisher in the shed anyway but still, it can and will ignite in a DFF easily.

    J-R
    Full Member

    I’m sure you saw what you saw, but Putoline has a flash point of >200C (their information), which is consistent with other hydrocarbon waxes, and the self ignition point of hydrocarbon waxes is about 250C. So you must have either had a faulty new DFF that just remained heating despite being far above your set temperature, or you had got some very flammable  contamination in the DFF, or the the “alight” you saw was coming from an electrical fault within the DFF.

    But Putoline itself, or cooking oils, or indeed even petrol, will not simply self combust just by being heated to temperatures of 150-170C at which you would fry chips.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    The flames were 2ft high so not just an electrical fault! 😂 Brand new tin of Putoline so not contaminated. Possible faulty DFF but it was definitely on fire! 🤷‍♂️

    jkomo
    Full Member

    I had my putoline on a camping burner, had it up very high. I’m pretty sure I overcooked it as it never got to the flakey stage when dry, it was always gloopy. It was still pretty good but didn’t look nice.
    GLF went on last night, it does indeed smell very nice.
    For the record followed the GLF instructions:
    2 rides old chain on factory grease.
    1 overnight soak in white spirit.
    1 short soak in fresh white spirit.
    Final soak in 99% alcohol.
    Dried on slow cooker.
    Also cleaned cassette in WS the sprayed with IPA and wiped down.
    30 mile road ride all looks and sounds great!

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    Nice! Enjoy the spotless waxy goodness. 🙂

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