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  • Turkey/Erdogan – Statutory rapists to be released if they marry their victims
  • Premier Icon cynic-al
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    Premier Icon willard
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    No argument there, but is it getting madder, or has it always been like this and we did not notice so much?

    Premier Icon leffeboy
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    yep, it’s mad but we aren’t the audience.  We are really seeing the bad aspects of democracy at the moment 🙁

    On the madness front here in Belgium we had a bunch of climate activists arrested by plain clothes police as they got off of the metro to go to a protest at the weekend.  They were in ones and twos, no visible signs of who they were, but because they had been to previous protests they were picked up, held in a huge temporary cell for 7 hours before being released with a small fine and a huge bill for serving the fine.   There had been a request to the courts by the organiser of the event that was being protested against for this to happen and then it had been kept secret so no-one knew that they would be arrested if they went to the event – even though this was all out in the open and discussed with the organisers and police.   Effectively it was a trap backed by the state

    So yes, it may always have been like this but it’s starting to get more and more obvious 🙁

    Premier Icon senor j
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    Oh my gosh.
    Crazy

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    leffeboy
    We are really seeing the bad aspects of democracy at the moment

    What we are seeing isn’t the bad aspects of democracy, but the bad effects of unfettered capitalism which has the capacity to massively misinform the electorate so their decisions are based on false foundations.

    Democracy needs truth first and foremost.

    My first question is does the woman have a choice? If not, then yes it’s outrageous.

    Otherwise I think back to some friends I had when I was young. He was 17, she 15. Her father didn’t approve of him so he got done. I can’t remember exactly what happened because I moved around then, but anyhow a couple of years later they married and stayed happily married until his death about 30 years later.

    If that sort of situation is what Turkey’s law is about, and the law provides safeguards for the woman against a forced marriage then I would find it difficult to object.

    We are really seeing the bad aspects of democracy

    Turkey isn’t really a democracy these days, is it?

    Locking up indefinitely anyone who disagrees with the govt isn’t democratic

    Premier Icon senor j
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    “law provides safeguards for the woman against a forced marriage then I would find it difficult to object”
    Gosh!

    taxi25
    Member

    The article uses the word “forced”. But is that the case ? I don’t think you can legally be forced into marriage in Turkey. But I don’t doubt that in some areas there could be a lot of pressure placed on a woman to accept a marriage they don’t want.
    My take is that it’s a type of “Romeo and Juliet” law.

    I read somewhere that this harkens back to previous centuries where a man was obligated to pay the father of his wife a… dowry, I guess. It was to prevent rape because the man would rather not be on the hook for this dowry. Quite why there wasn’t just an actual punishment for rape back then I don’t know, but women have always come off worst when religion informs legislation so maybe it’s no surprise this was the way it was dealt with. So it *kind of* makes sense historically, but in the 21st century it’s absolutely bonkers.

    Premier Icon tomd
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    What you’re really seeing is a collection of emotionally compelling clickbait news headlines designed to get a reaction from you, based on whatever worldview you have. They usually have no relevance to you, your life or future life but negatively shape your reality. It’s sad when people pick up these trash stories and get worked up about it.

    The Independent/MailOnline/Sun Online/BBC can only exist if they get enough people to react to their content. This would be expensive and difficult by investigating and present the real news, so why not just pick up mad stories from all over the world that suit a purpose and use those? A totally irrelavant minor working of the Turkish state? Excellent, that’ll tickle the Independent readers. Meanwhile, FoxNews will have the same thing wrapped up as an example of good old common sense. What’s going on in your local council, school, courts or businesses is far more relevant but gets zero interest from the media because it’s dull and hard work.

    Interesting blog post from Mark Manson. I cut down on the news massively about 6 months ago, and feel a lot happier for it.

    Premier Icon footflaps
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    He must have watched the Handmaid’s tale and thought is was a good idea…

    A totally irrelavant minor working of the Turkish state?

    That’s a very white male point of view.

    If you were a woman in Turkey you may think this was important.

    Still, rights, eh? Who cares what foreigners do?

    Premier Icon tomd
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    but I’m not a woman in Turkey, and I assume, neither are you.

    I would also assume that you will do nothing based on this story, beyond try and get a bit self righteous to feel good. Clearly you’re morally superior to me. So whether you think you care more or less than me the net result for a woman in Turkey will be the same. The Independent will have made a bit more money from the extra clickthroughs.

    Premier Icon cynic-al
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    tomd what’s your point? Apart from assuming others’ reactions and responses to news – hint – they might be different to yours.

    Better to be unaware of politics in other countries?

    Premier Icon tomd
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    Don’t share trashy news links, that’s my point. Your asserting that the world is going mad based on an obscure story repackaged at low/no cost by the Independent to get a reaction from you.

    This thread won’t end well.

    Premier Icon timbog160
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    Extremely odd point of view. Complaining about click bait stories and then posting a link to some random blog..

    This legislation has been attempted before and was defeated at least in part due to international pressure. I’d say it is therefore perfectly legitimate to raise its profile to ensure the same happens again.

    chewkw
    Member

    Turkey/Erdogan – Statutory rapists to be released if they marry their victims

    Me think there is an element of religious interpretation gone badly wrong as the common sense is ignored. Even in religious sense.

    taxi25
    Member

    As ever though the devil is in the detail. If the law allows a 19 year old man who is in jail for having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend, ( age of consent is 18 in Turkey)to get out early if they conseually marry there’s a argument in favour of it. But if it allowed a rapist to get out of jail and presumably continue to rape his victim then it would be an abomination.
    And I get tomd’s point clickbait stories don’t give any proper perspective, unless you use them as a basis for more in depth investigation, their only purpose is to generate revenue and inflame emotions

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
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    This legislation has been attempted before and was defeated at least in part due to international pressure. I’d say it is therefore perfectly legitimate to raise its profile to ensure the same happens again.

    The point TomD was making, is that what are you going to do about it.

    Fine to get all self righteous on STW about an issue, but I think I’m correct that Erdogan isn’t on the forum.

    Go write an angry letter to you MP and CC the Turkish embassy or something, and encourage others to if you want. But don’t morally posture on a mountain biking forum about how much you care, unless you accept that someone might turn around and question how much do you actually give a shit. Or is it just clickbait and the the wrappings of tomorrows digital fish and chips.

    Premier Icon timbog160
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    @taxi25 I’m not sure I’d agree about that – if it is acceptable for a 19 year old to have sex with his 17 year old girlfriend, then the problem there is that the age of consent is too high. This law won’t address that root cause, and there is a far greater risk of it doing more harm.

    taxi25
    Member

    But in reality most of us aren’t affect by most things that happen outside our immediate family and community. Does that mean I can’t have an opinion on anything not covered in the Llandaff North quarterly Gazzette ?
    News from the wider world is “interesting” whether it affects us or not.

    taxi25
    Member

    and there is a far greater risk of it doing more harm.

    I probably agree, especially how the law might be applied in more religiously conservative areas of the country. I was just putting out an alternative take on things.
    Trying to avoid that click bait knee jerk reaction.

    Premier Icon timbog160
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    I’m with taxi25. Actually I do get tomd’s point, but I just don’t think this story is a particularly good example of click bait. It seems pretty measured to me.

    Premier Icon faerie
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    In a globalised world international issues can and do affect us. Our border security has had to be increased because of a viral outbreak in China and our NHS is providing treatment. Womens rights in Turkey can also change our moral perspective and be detrimental to families living in the UK. Even if the women aren’t forced to get married do they really have a choice in a patriarchal society? Even in the UK we’re a long way off achieving equal rights and practice is seriously lagging behind policy, but we’re much better off than the majority of the female population so I should be wheesht and grateful.
    I do agree that the stories are framed to create click bate and present one dramatised narrative that suits an agenda and boosts profit, but if you’re interested in the stories then use them to find others that fit with your views, or even explore others.

    “Women aren’t recognised as individuals but as extensions of men”

    Premier Icon nickc
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    I’d echo tomd’s point. The struggle for women’s rights in Turkey isn’t urgent* news, if you care to know about it, then find and book or article on it written by someone who knows something about it rather than from the Independent which is just grabbing your attention for the click through

    *ie isn’t going effect you in the hours or few days, please don’t make the assumption that I don’t think this issues isn’t important, they aren’t the same thing

    I would also assume that you will do nothing based on this story, beyond try and get a bit self righteous to feel good. Clearly you’re morally superior to me.

    Self depreciation to slap me down? Won’t work.

    Why is news that you don’t like, or even presented in a way you don’t approve of, beyond discussion?

    There will be plenty of people on this forum who have or may go on holiday to Turkey. Their views of that country may be shaped by news reports like this and not just that “it’s quite cheap”.

    I wouldn’t put a country like that on my holiday list. I trust that justifies my comment; but could not really give two shits if it doesn’t.

    You seem to care very deeply about clickbait, but much less about women’s rights around the world. Which is the point of the article, in case you have forgotten.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    senor j
    “law provides safeguards for the woman against a forced marriage then I would find it difficult to object”
    Gosh!

    I’m puzzled as to what you find objectionable about that. Do you think the law should NOT provide safeguards.

    Premier Icon CountZero
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    Clearly you’re morally superior to me.

    ‘The ethical dwarf, posturing on the moral high ground, makes a ludicrous spectacle.’

    Coyote
    Member

    I cut down on the news massively about 6 months ago, and feel a lot happier for it.

    Ditto. Much, much happier.

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