Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 85 total)
  • Tubeless on a road bike, worth it?
  • Premier Icon robowns
    Free Member

    Tubeless off-road tubes on for me – done the last 3k miles with only one puncture so not convinced of the benefit. Also not convinced on the lower pressure argument, I run 30c at 65psi (LB carbon wheels) with a tube without issue (I’m 85kg); don’t see why I’d go lower.

    Premier Icon Bazz
    Free Member

    Well as predicted by myself, mention that i don’t suffer from punctures that often and i got one on today’s ride, typical! First one in more than 18 months 🙄

    Premier Icon wooksterbo
    Full Member

    To ask a related question, how long would you expect a tubeless setup to stay reasonably inflated if left to sit in a garage. I know pressures will drop but my Trek Checkpoint rear wheel drops to near flat within 5-6 days (when not used). Pressure to begin with was around 45psi on a Vittoria 37mm gravel tyre.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Generally without some fibre behind it you wont seal a hole with 90 psi behind it.

    Don’t put 90 psi in. You don’t need to, and most systems are only rated to 70psi anyway. I think most people who have problems are running too high pressures.

    Premier Icon bjhedley
    Full Member

    I run tubeless since getting new wheels (Scribe) and use Vittoria Corsa G+ (Summer) and Corsa Controls (Winter). Not had a puncture so that’s all good. Downsides? Well, they’re a faff to mount, the sealant still gums up the valve. Plus, frankly for me the lower pressures argument is a bit of a nonstarter. I run mine about 75-80 psi but I only ran my tubed Corsa’s at 90 psi, so it doesn’t make much difference. You can go lower, but makes the bike handle weirdly IMO when cranking it over downhill. Bearing in mind the tubeless version has a stiffer sidewall, the ride quality is basically the same.

    I’ve really not noticed any difference between tubes and tubeless if I’m brutally honest as I didn’t puncture that much with tubes, maybe I was just lucky. I also don’t commute so only weekend fun rides which probably helps since I get the better end of the weather spectrum.

    Premier Icon iainc
    Full Member

    I am getting a new winter road bike at the weekend, a 2021 Giant Contend AR1 – it comes with tubeless 32c setup. Will be interesting to see if I can feel the difference from my other road bike which has 28c with tubes. Not too sure what pressures to start with, weighing in at 12.5 stone. On my Fugio I have tubeless 650 x 47 and tend to run them at about 35psi for a mix of road and gravel.

    Premier Icon MrSmith
    Free Member

    To ask a related question, how long would you expect a tubeless setup to stay reasonably inflated if left to sit in a garage. I know pressures will drop but my Trek Checkpoint rear wheel drops to near flat within 5-6 days (when not used). Pressure to begin with was around 45psi on a Vittoria 37mm gravel tyre.

    it depends on how uniform the rim/tape/tyre bead is and if the tyre carcass is leaky.
    i have a new set of handbuilts with light bicycle rims and i inflated a new pair of hutchinson fusion fives on them without any sealant or washing up liquid. this with just a track pump. they sat there at 100psi for 2 weeks and were still rock hard and overinflated when i deflated to fit some sealant. oddly the front which i removed as it was on the wrong way round would not inflate, bit of washing up liquid and it popped straight on.

    been a road tubeless convert for the last 6-7 years, would never go back. first wheels were easton RT with the curved rim bed and no spoke holes/tape and schwalbes, didn’t have any problems with those but the light bicycle rims are really easy to get a tyre up with a track pump. only had one rim/tyre need a trip to LBS and their compressor and that was a DT with a hutchinson fusion.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Not too sure what pressures to start with, weighing in at 12.5 stone.

    I’m closer to 13 stone and run 50psi in 32s, in fact I think I even ran 45psi for an especially cobbled ride. That’s with tubes as well so I’d guess you could safely start at 45psi and see how it goes.

    I definitely noticed the benefit of lower pressures and higher volumes on that ride, the bike absolutely skimmed along the cobbles, was great fun.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    My tyres lose a out 10psi in a week, but I was used to pumping up my 100psi every ride anyway so no difference for me.

    You can go lower, but makes the bike handle weirdly IMO when cranking it over downhill.

    I’ve not had this, but my wheels are ‘gravel’ supposedly which means they are a bit wider. Similarly to MTBs it seems that low pressures, bigger tyres run tubeless and wider rims all have to go together to get the benefit.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    To ask a related question, how long would you expect a tubeless setup to stay reasonably inflated if left to sit in a garage.

    I lose 10-15 psi over a week.

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Full Member

    A quick update on punctures and the Gravel Bike. I had been running Stan’s Race sealant in the front since the last puncture and Muc Off in the rear. On Friday I had a 4mm cut and a second puncture on the way to work. Tyre pumped up at the end of the day and slowly deflated to around 2 bar on the ride back home.

    I have replaced what little Muc Off was left in the tyre with Stan’s and it went up and sealed the hole and held pressure overnight. The Muc Off seemed to be ejected from the hole while riding as there was none of the usual rhythmic air loss sounds going on as I rode along. The tyre is up for replacement soon as most of the knobs are very well worn.

    EDIT Fortunately I get them trade as the tyre has done 2600km since new and may struggle to reach 3500km! Very grippy in use but soft as a soft thing.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Fortunately I get them trade as the tyre has done 2600km since new and may struggle to reach 3500km! Very grippy in use but soft as a soft thing.

    Is that Conti black chilli compound?

    I’ve got something close to 2000km out of a set of Vittoria Terreno Dry, the rear is almost smooth in the middle, although there was barely any tread to begin with (Vittoria call it ‘fish scales’, I would say it was just cosmetic but have also been pleasantly surprised with the grip considering the ‘scales’ are only about 0.5mm deep when new…).

    Maybe 2500km is about the going rate for tread on a gravel tyre?

    Premier Icon antigee
    Full Member

    Mixed like lower pressures and roll great but I ride suburban roads and shared trails to get put of city and glass cuts a problem for me…had to abandon a couple of rides and cut a ride or two short because couldn’t get seal with tachos and couldn’t just pop in a tube with very tight fitting…looking for road / gravel maybe a bit heavier but cut resistant….and jizz all over is not a good cafe look

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Full Member

    @13thfloormonk Yes that’s Black Chilli compound. They are Terra Speed 35mm tyres and roll quite well.

    Premier Icon tpbiker
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    I’m not convinced. The issue I have with it is that if you do have a puncture that won’t seal its game over for a lot of tyre/tim combos. Take for example the gp5000. I’ve tried mounting them on 3 different carbon rims with no joy. Actually sent the first back as assumed it was faulty, but replacement was as bad. If it takes me an hr to wrestle on a tyre in the warmth of my garage, screw trying to do it at roadside.

    Rolling resistance wise, The difference between a tubeless setup and a latex tube is minimal, you have far more tyre options with a tube, and although you don’t get the same puncture protection, roadside fixes are far easier

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    @tpbiker – why would you need to take it off at the roadside? I’ve been road tubeless for 5-6years and have yet to even have to remove a wheel to fix a puncture, never mind the tyre.

    WRT mounting them. Stick them in a bucket of hot water for 10mins before trying to mount them. It helps.

    I’ve got GP5000TL 32s on 3 different carbon wheelsets and they’ve all gone on okay (for tubeless), even on very wide rims.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I’ve been road tubeless for 5-6years and have yet to even have to remove a wheel to fix a puncture, never mind the tyre

    I’ve twice been on rides when tubeless converts have had to resort to tubes.

    I’ve been on two other rides where tubeless folks had endless trouble with Darts etc. coming loose or leaking, or old repairs re-opening etc.

    I’m not anti-tubeless, have just enjoyed 2 trouble free months on my CX bike, but I also wouldn’t be comfortable with any setup where I couldn’t easily just stick a tube in to get me home.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    Really? I figured (and my experience so far) is that once an anchovie is in, it seems to weld itself to the tyre. A few hundred miles later it basically is the tyre. I can’t even see (from the outside) where my two repairs were on my Hutchinson Sectors. Both of these happened when commuting, both in the dark and the bloody wet, as is typical of such things, but once plugged and rotated a couple of times and then pumped back up to about 70% of normal pressure, they were fine to get me home. the next day I removed the valve core, topped drew out what remained of the old fluid, added new fluid, rotated and pumped back upto normal pressure. I did consider adding some superglue to the outside (I do carry it in my gear, but mostly for repairs to myself rather than the bike) but figured it would just go brittle, so left it.

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Full Member

    My non-sealing puncture problems are mostly self-inflicted and revolve around failure to maintain sealant levels (or poor sealant choice). The Friday one worked just well enough to get me home though the tyre was a bit squirmy on corners towards the end of the ride.

    The replacement Stan’s held pressure for the whole day (I checked before cycling home) and again overnight (usual half bar loss due to bead sealing not fully complete). It also helps that I’m using a correctly sized tape on the rim.

    Premier Icon bigmandh
    Free Member

    One of the biggest cons is always cost of new tubeless system, but if youve already got the wheels anyway then why not give it a shot for the sake of buying valves and sealant (presuming tyres are tbr or have still to be purchased)

    Imo it’s a worthwhile upgrade

    Premier Icon uwe-r
    Free Member

    I went tubeless on the road bike for a few years. Had loads of trouble with punctures prior and was looking for the ultimate solution. It was better but i still got punctures, over time i got into the habit of sticking a tube in when i did get a puncture and then not bothering to ever replace the tube. So a few years on when it was time for new tyres i just bought standard non tubeless. This was a commuter bike and i had a tip to try the conti gators – basic wire bead ones. Those with tubes were the best performer for non punctures i have ever used. The only tyres i have fitted on the roady and had on for well over a year with no puncture. I ended up selling that bike and dont think those gators ever punctured. When (if) if ever go back to commuting i would go straight to that set up.

    @13thfloormonk

    I’ve twice been on rides when tubeless converts have had to resort to tubes.

    I’ve been on two other rides where tubeless folks had endless trouble with Darts etc. coming loose or leaking, or old repairs re-opening etc.

    I’m not anti-tubeless, have just enjoyed 2 trouble free months on my CX bike, but I also wouldn’t be comfortable with any setup where I couldn’t easily just stick a tube in to get me home.

    Why cant you use a tube to get home when there are issues with a tubeless? I think one of the benefits of a tubeless is that to get you home you dont have to pull out the old tube and store it some where, you just need to keep hold of the valve.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    If it takes me an hr to wrestle on a tyre in the warmth of my garage, screw trying to do it at roadside.

    My Schwalble Pro One on Fulcrum 77 DB popped on as normal. In fact, much more easily than some tubed combos I’ve had. I have tyre levers in my pack now all the time though. I’m considering a little bottle of sealant.

    Why cant you use a tube to get home when there are issues with a tubeless?

    I think he’s saying that it’s too difficult to get the tyres off when they are tubeless.

    Premier Icon uwe-r
    Free Member

    I also used Pro Ones and no different to pop on off than anything else. I see the point for ones that you really need to battle.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Why cant you use a tube to get home when there are issues with a tubeless?

    I was responding to Daffy’s post suggesting that it WASN’T a problem being unable to take tyres off easily, my point being that I’d prefer the ability to be able to stick a tube in to get me home.

    First test I did with my Vittorias before going tubeless was making sure I could mount and dismount them by hand, although I’ll usually resort to a tyre lever out of laziness.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    This thread is an interesting read, there seem to be a few variations in terms of use case and real world experiences…

    I suppose the first question really has to be what is the actual reason for fitting tubeless to a road bike?

    It’s not really about puncture resistance, more feel and rolling resistance.

    ^^That’s the overiding Impression I get.
    Does road tubeless perhaps suffer from people overselling the wrong benefit? i.e. puncture resistance/sealing…

    With tubes the (on average) one flat a year I get is on the rear (more of my bulk on it) and is either due to letting a tyre go a bit long once it’s worn or, more often, catching a bastard bit of flint and putting a cut through. Which is probably where tubeless falls a bit short anyway.

    If there’s a risk of having to fit a tube, I really don’t want to be wrestling with a tight fit by the roadside either…

    But if it’s mainly comfort, grip and rolling benefits I can’t help thinking that tubeless front, tube in rear might be a sensible trade-off? I know I already benefit from a wee bit less pressure in the front helping with general vibration and fatigue of my neck and shoulders, and I know I can live with the risk of having to fix that once a year rear flat…

    Is there a “third way”?

    Premier Icon tpbiker
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    I’ve twice been on rides when tubeless converts have had to resort to tubes

    Yep, my experience as well, twice not sealing and plug didnt worked.. Tbf schwalbe pro ones are reasonably easy to get on and off but getting then seated again properly (afyer fitting tube) is not great, but that’s probably my wheelset more than the tyre.

    Gp5000s are a whole new level of hard to fit however. I couldn’t manage it with 2 levers, inside, after I’d warmed up the tyre, with an hr set aside to do it. Apparently some wheel manufactures recommend not using then as they are so tight they can damage wheel trying to mount.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    I noticed that my new bike with 65psi tubeless tyres seems remarkably fast above say 50k0h.on descents. It keeps on accelerating beyond what I’m used to, or it feels like it. A product of more supple lower pressure tyres on rougher roads perhaps? Or an illusion?

    Anyone else notice this with nice supple tyres?

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    It’s not really about puncture resistance, more feel and rolling resistance.

    The thing is, tubeless isn’t necessarily faster rolling OR more supple (or lighter, for that matter) than a nice clincher with a latex tube. I can certainly vouch for that after the best part of a year riding gravel and CX with latex tubes in nice clincher tyres.

    So the benefits really are just puncture resistance. I didn’t even go tubeless on the gravel bike until I spent my autumn picking hawthorne out of deflated tyres.

    Not dumping on tubeless, I’m quite happy with my setup now that I’ve committed, spent the money and suffered the inevitable steep learning curve (complete with bad tempered STW thread 🤣 ), I just think the benefits are often mis-sold.

    Premier Icon Bazz
    Free Member

    Well after all the debate i have decided to give tubeless a go, i’m starting with new tubeless ready wheels and i need new tyres anyway so have just decided to embrace the technology and see how it goes.

    Premier Icon shedbrewed
    Free Member

    I mix between tubeless and tubed on the road. Interesting piece from Jan on rolling inertia of tubeless https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-7-tubeless-tires-roll-faster/ I put a few thousand miles on a pair of 30mm Corsa control tubeless this last year on varying terrain. And picked up a few of these buggers in the process
    Thorny
    I always carried a tube and a small bottle of sealant in case things went bad and needed both. The sidewalls of both tyres were torn after some rough stuff that was totally outside their design parameters. I patched them internally but eventually the sidewalls let go at the carcass after too much pressure to get them to seat.
    Corsa control
    Wasn’t cross at that point as they were just about dead from tread wear. I’m back on tubes now in another pair of Corsa control non-tlr and they’re great. Will be going tubeless again for more audaxes when allowed.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    I’m tubeless now on road bikes. My winter bike has Bontrager Aeolus Pro carbon rims, can get clinchers on no problems, Pro Ones and Bontrager R3 tubeless go off and on with a battle. Not sure I’d get a tube under the tyre without pinching it with the tyre lever.
    I used to have Reynolds 60mm carbon wheels, what an absolute faff they are. Neither tubeless or clinchers went on easy. I’ve been by the side of the road fighting with them for 45 mins to get the tyre off. (GP5000 clincher) At home with the tyre remover tool it was only a 20 minute fight per tyre. Put Pro One tubeless and decided if I ever got a flat that didn’t seal with dynaplug then I’d be phoning for a pickup.
    My replacement wheels,Bontrager XXX 60mm carbon wheels are easy for clinchers but the Pro One tubeless will be a battle to get off should I need to. Conti 5000 tubeless were impossible for me. (I only have limited use of my left arm and pretty much no grip, so I’m restricted to what tyres I can use)

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Re feel- the Schwalbe Pro Ones are also apparently somewhat armoured, they have what they call a V-guard layer, whatever that does. Perhaps they needed to add it to make it feasible? I don’t know. Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence about the relative puncture susceptibility of Pro Ones vs other tubeless tyres?

    It may be that the tyres themselves are tougher than those tubed tyres that compare in terms of RR.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Interesting piece from Jan on rolling inertia of tubeless

    Hmm, it cites testing but doesn’t mention method , tyres tested or results. But it also says that with the right technique it is possible to seat tyres without a compressor – I would say this is more down to the rim/tyre combination than technique. So not the best article I’ve read.

    The bicycle RR guy does publish methods and stats, and his results show that there is not a lot in it between the best tubed tyres and tubeless.

    Premier Icon shedbrewed
    Free Member

    @molgrips I’m not sure if it was the bicycle RR testers who found latex tubes increase RR in comparison to butyl tubes? Sure I’ve read it somewhere recently.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Hmm I dunno, that would be rather confusing and intriguing if true!

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    road.cc quoted a 1.2W saving when using latex tubes in GP5000 clinchers vs. the GP5000 tubeless.

    They went on to emphasise that this was with latex tubes, but didn’t give a number with butyl. Inference was that using butyl would reduce or eliminate the saving.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    Bicycle Rolling Resistance also quotes Latex tubes as being faster than butyl.
    In fact I’ve not seen one study saying the opposite?

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Full Member

    Benefits to me on the road are more supple ride (65psi is easier on me than 80/85 minimum needed with tubes) and the pinch/thorn/cut puncture resistance (with the correct sealant).

    I suspect that if I tried those low pressures with latex tubes I would be an expert in mounting/demounting tyres in next to no time.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    Bicycle Rolling Resistance also quotes Latex tubes as being faster than butyl.
    In fact I’ve not seen one study saying the opposite?

    I suppose the next obvious question has to be what relative level of benefit (in terms of comfort and rolling resistance) can be achieved with just Butyl tubes, wider non-TR tyres and wider rims?

    I’ve just (an hour ago) fitted a wider, Tubeless ready, front rim on my road bike and just put the old 25mm Conti back on with the same old butyl tube, putting a calliper across the tyre it now comes up as ~28mm wide, I’ve scored some extra volume and I’ll be playing with pressures again anyway. I had been toying with splashing out on a 25-28mm TR tyre, but now I’m half wondering if life would be easier and I’d see at least some useful ride improvements if I just popped a Latex tube in a non-TR tyre.

    I’m not exactly on the high performing end of the scale anyway, and a tenner on a posher tube as a little experiment is entirely justifiable, where dropping £40-50 on a new TR tyre is a bigger spend when I’m not totally sure I’d benefit…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Wait til you wear one out, that’s what I’d do. Except I didn’t 🙂

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