With regard to management – read my post on page 2.

Well hora is campaigning

😀 This is an internet forum for middle aged moutainbikers. “Campaigning” – pftttt – he’s suggesting man – no one gives a rats ass what we think!

Double time for Bank holidays – well as I said above nothing wrong in asking, but as part of a grown up pay negotiation in conjunction with annual salary and other T&Cs. Sadly as neither you or I are a member of the union or tfl negotiating team we have no idea how “grown up” they have been. Striking now doesn’t seem that grown up though and won’t really hurt the tfl bottom line. It won’t win them any friends with the travelling public though who I’d imagine will struggle to find an awful lot of empathy with them.

Thanks to Bob Crow I’ve just got a 5.7% rise for 2012, If it wasn’t for the union we would have got hee haw! Was a 2 year deal RPI+ 0.5% for 2011 and same for 2012 based on November RPI, considering a lot of folks are on a pay freeze I have no complaints,
PJ.

It won’t win them any friends with the travelling public though …….

Is that the same travelling public who think that Aslef is asking for quadruple money, thinks that only 42% voted for strike action, and are unaware that the Chairman of Transport for London only got his job because 25% of the electorate bothered voting for him, or that TFL’s top management are getting over a quarter of a million pounds a year each ?

Well I suspect you might be right there.

Although this strike isn’t about ‘winning friends’, so let’s not worry too much about it eh ?

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I’m guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures. I’d imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle – neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

You are wrong about the winning friends bit though. In this current economic climate there will be so much political pressure for them not to cave in from the government they will need all the support from the public they can get. Cameron is as much of a sucker for a focus group as Blair.

It occurs to me that I’m getting paid for boxing day, and also the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that. Then it’s the weekend, so I’m not getting paid then but I do get paid for the day after that and the day after that. Meanwhile, I will be riding my bike and eating mince pies.

So, triple time for doing some work doesn’t seem so unreasonable after all- turns out I’m the c***! Who knew?

I’d imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle – neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

Aslef cannot manipulate a ballot result which it has statutory obligation to carry out. Furthermore they have an legal obligation to furnish management with all the details concerning the ballot, including results, numbers involved, work place location, spoilt ballot papers, etc. Every detail will be scrutinised by management’s legal department for any discrepancies which can form the basis of a legal challenge.

Looking at that list I reckon every single person on it could just about scrape by if you halved their wages…

They probably could, but they’d just piss off to somewhere where they would make more money and you’d be left with a mix of cheapo numpties who aren’t wanted anywhere else and true professionals who are willing to accept worse pay because they believe in what they do.

Bob Crow could “scrape by” on half his current salary but we already agreed he’s worth it, right? 😉

All the upper management will be in Davos or St Morritz

lol!

correct – figures can’t be (legally)manipulated but they (and tfl) can manipulate how the figures are presented in their press releases:-

aslef – “The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they returned a 92.3% vote in favour of action. ” Key word there is returned. That figure is the percentage of slips returned in favour of strike action not the percentage of union members in favour of strike action.

tfl – “said only 42% of drivers voted to strike.” In that figure they may be including all union member that failed to vote plus all non union members as not all drivers are also union members.

As said above the true figure of union members voting for strike action will be somewhere between those two figures and I’m sure will come to light if they strike/ management goes to the high court.

But this is getting off the point.

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I’m guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures.

Presumably the 92% is of “drivers that bothered to vote” and the 42% is of “all drivers”.

There is more than one union representing tube drivers.

Aslef only represents 60% of tube drivers. Which is a higher percentage than Londoners who voted for the Chairman of Transport for London.

Democratic mandates – don’t you just love’em ?

“Director of Better Routes and Places” lol what a job title

Anyway – yeah they’re overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can’t really blame them. It’s pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we’d all be better off. At best we’d just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole – not much point being in a union then. I know, let’s all try communism…

“Director of Better Routes and Places” lol what a job title

Anyway – yeah they’re overpaid and making ridiculous demands

Management ?

Not many are suggesting striking. But unionise? Yes, for sure and collectively campaign and bargain for better pay and conditions. Saying “Ah, sure it’s tough times. Suck it up” is bollocks. There’s only one thing that tfl senior management is sucking up and that’s money. Lots of it. Like greedy little hoovers.

Imagine working class people earning upwards of £40k a year. It simply cannot be so.

Anyway – yeah they’re overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can’t really blame them. It’s pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we’d all be better off. At best we’d just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole – not much point being in a union then. I know, let’s all try communism…

Pretty impressive: from collective negotiation to Soviet prison camps in one paragraph!

I struggle with long sentences but I did read as far as

I’ve got no sympathy for the drivers on this particular issue, but in general support their actions- too many people here (I’m guessing largely outside the m25) feel that since they’re not in a position to obtain a pay rise that everybody else should suffer.

Which (despite me living outside the m25) pretty much sums it up for me

Looking at those management salaries – some of those are absolutely obscene!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the ‘workers’ start making demands. Though that seems absolutely indicative of things everywhere in this country at the moment.

And wasn’t Boris trying to stop the Crossrail going to a PFI, and fund it centrally to reduce costs? But was slapped down by Dave? Seems to me like the whole thing is just the usual gravy train for the usual vested interests

I initially thought what a bunch of tw*ts when I read this, but looking at that list of management wages, I think f*ck the management, they have brought this on with their obscene wages, and stupid handling of all of it.
If the tube drivers can get this pay demand then good luck to them.

Looking at those management salaries – some of those are absolutely obscene!

How much do you think they should be paid?

Swerving the politics – I think since the tube strikes the other year there are more commuting clyclists in London – and more have gone all weather from fair weather…..

I now suspect Evan’s and CycleSurgery are in league with the unions…….questions must be asked……

Well, to be honest I can’t see how anyone warrants a salary of £850,000. Perhaps you could explain to me what he (and it’ll certainly be a ‘he’) does that justifies that?

And this one really makes me laugh

Vernon Everitt, Managing Director, Group Marketing and Communications: £230,310

Yip… Marketing an organisation that basically has a captive market with no real competition. Yeah… sounds like a killer of a job that. How on earth are we going to get people to use this ‘tube’ thing? Anyone any ideas? It’ll have to be some pretty revolutionary stuff!!!

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Clearly earning his keep – How many strikes in the past few years.

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Bob Crow and his £133,138 annual package in that list ?

If Bob Crow were paid the same as Gerald Duffy, would there be more strikes or fewer?

Yeah! Right on comrade! Rise up against the fascist bastards! Ruthlessly oppressing their enslaved minions. The poor sods desperately scraping by on 50 grand a year! Throw off your chains brothers!!!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the ‘workers’ start making demands.

You’ve got a rubber arm, binners!

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say “we’ll have a bit of that too”. Its ridiculous!

Now…. can you now explain to me why Rob Holden, the Chief Executive of Crossrail deserves a salary of £850,000 PA. Nearly two and a half grand a day FFS! 😯

I’m all ears…..

I have to admit, Ive never been a member of a union and dont agree with their tactics in this, but the management team are stupidly overpaid as I see it.
Thus the union sees clearly there is money going spare.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

Its just that some are actually paid to drive the gravy train.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say “we’ll have a bit of that too”. Its ridiculous!

An example? Think there’s been a management pay freeze for a while, and a few of the top management haven’t been picking up their bonuses for the last couple of years, including Hendy. See, we’re all in this etc etc.

Those salaries pale in comparison to Network Rail, btw.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries.

So the decisive factor for you in going back on your uninformed comment about tube drivers being overpaid for their work was how much other people are paid for completely different jobs?

You’re so easily swayed by emotion, binners. Nae steel, man!

Sorry Konabunny. I forgot where I was for a while. I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

I did get one bit right though. It was uninformed. Its a start 😉

I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

That’s what I like to hear, man! Good for you!

To put the 42% claim into perspective, around 23% of the electorate voted conservative at the last election. Now, who’s our prime minister?

Wage demands come down to the strength of negotiation avaialble on either side. In most industries, the employer has the upper hand. I guess that’s why you lot are so jealous. I only wish that Crow was my union leader…I reckon he earns every penny of his salary.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No I can’t agree with that.

£45k for doing a vital job which regularly involves starting work long before most people have even thought of getting out of bed and finishing long after most have got home, plus working weekends, and in which thousands of people’s safety is your responsibility, does not represent being “overpaid” imo.

£45k is an excellent salary which reflects the responsibility and all year round unsociable hours which come with the job. But to suggest that a tube driver working the day after Christmas Day deserves no extra money because it’s no different to any Saturday or Sunday, is frankly taking the piss.

Tube drivers are well paid, but that fact should be celebrated rather than condemned. Because despite trying for the last thirty years a low wage economy does not deliver results. The reason why Britain, the Eurozone, and the US, for example, are in such dire economic straits is precisely because of the constant drive for lower wages.

Since the neoliberals started setting the agenda 30 years ago wages as a percentage of GDP have fallen whilst the rich have got richer and, unsurprisingly, the poor poorer.

Income inequality growing faster in UK than any other rich country, says OECD

To deal with the paradox of overproduction/underconsumption the neoliberals had a “solution”……..easy credit. Capitalism needs working people not only to produce goods and services, but also to act as consumers for goods and services.

Despite their vast economic power the effect of the stinking rich on the market is negligible. Overwhelmingly, the market exists to service the needs of ordinary working people. Provide them easy credit to buy what they need/are told they need, whilst keeping their wages low, and that gives them the purchasing power which Capitalism demands of them.

Only it doesn’t work ….. as the credit-fuelled boom/crises has clearly proved. Globally.

What we need is less concentration of wealth in the hands of the few and more wealth distributed among ordinary working people, ie, less inequality, not more – which is what we’re getting at the present.

The Instability of Inequality

The tube drivers are doing their bit towards achieving this, Transport for London management isn’t.

Low paid tube drivers dependent on easy credit or, living austere lives, is not the answer. A living wage and full employment is.

To repeat, join your union!

If you want to do something about every company’s “obscene” pay for senior management you have to strengthen the union WHERE YOU WORK.

Or, you can continue to tut, carp and complain but remain apathetic – that’ll help get us out of this mess.

Sorry to disagree with you Feefoo, but I think the only way to tackle obscene executive pay in some companies is to break the strangle hold of shareholder groups, all looking after each other.

it would be down to shareholders to stop the high pay awards.
Problem is the shareholders are wanting the companies they hold shares in to back them up in their executive pay deals.

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Not necessarily true. Trade unions are very much involved in the battle against growing income inequality and the introduction of measures such as remuneration committees and legally binding maximum wage ratios. If an employer had to automatically increase the wages of all its employees to maintain maximum wage ratio, then they would start thinking twice about awarding excessive wages rises to senior managers.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No.

Can we instead all agree that many other professions are underpaid?

I think it’s great that tube drivers are paid a decent wage and have fairly decent employment conditions. So it bloody should be. They’re vitally important to the running of one of the World’s leading centres of commerce and finance.

And it’s especially great that things like this really make the bottoms of Little England itch. 😀

Scratch scratch scratch careful you’ll make it bleed…

Honestly you lot really need a reality check. WHERE do you think the money comes from????

Relative ton their skills and ability tube drivers are OVERPAID. If you paid everyone with that level of skill and ability with that wage the country would go bankrupt!

All that is happening is …well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand is that this is at the expense of the rest of the population, i.e. taxpayers. That extra money could have invested in better infrastructure or employed another person.

There is a case that people at the top are overpaid, that is a different issue.

People should be paid relative to their skills and abilities. In this respect tube drivers are overpaid although not quite to the same excesses as the directors and senior managers. We can’t all be paid the same and I agree the ratio between senior managers and shop floor workers is too high. However even if you reduce the ratio it still would not compensate to allow equivalent workers to be paid the same as tube drivers.

Fair enough if they can get it. Just remember that in doing so it unfairly penalises the general tax paying public.

Frodo – Member

well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand

Remind us what it’s got to do with Bob Crow again?

Remind us what it’s got to do with Bob Crow again?

I’d laugh but as you know Northwind, I can’t really. 🙂

Why not? Fear of sharting?