I’m sure they’re not the only brand, but this is one of the worst examples I’ve seen

Looking at the Fuel EXe 9.9 XTR compared to the base model Fuel EXe 9.5, there’s a price difference of six and a half thousand euro

For that six and a half grand (this is Euro, because that’s where I live):

Rockshox 35 upgraded to Lyrik Ultimate, with AirWiz. That’s about 1000 to buy the fork and the airwiz, allowing nothing for the 35

Deluxe shock, upgraded to Super Deluxe Ultimate with Airwiz – let’s generously allow 500

Bontrager Carbon wheels, let’s call it another 1000 to upgrade those, including different Bontrager tyres.

XTR groupset, minus cranks/chainring as this is an E-Bike -maybe 1000 again including brakes?

Stupid 1 piece handlebar and stem, probably 200 worth if you actually wanted it.

And that’s your lot. Everything else listed in Specs is the same. So, you could buy the base model, upgrade all the parts at retail prices, and save about three thousand euro.

Special mention also, for the Fuel EXe 9.8 XT and the Fuel EXe 9.8 GX AXS which seem to be identucal bikes, but Trek charge 700 extra to fit a 400 quid AXS kit (not accounting for the cost of the XT bits)

Any other brands as bad as this out there?

Any other brands as bad as this out there?

Most of them at a guess. Specialized started it and the others followed suit when they saw they could get away with it. It’s not limited to eBikes though.

Specialized used to be the masters of selling something for way more than the sum of its parts. Have you ever priced up an S-Works? But then, the only people I’ve ever known who ride S-Works or similar top end Spesh/Treks are people who work in the trade and never pay full price.

As for any civilian mad enough to just walk in off the street and pay RRP then sure, take their money. They can hang it in the garage next to their car collection.

Seriously the only solution to the madness is to stop looking and caring. I have no idea what’s going on in big brand MTB anymore and I’m less and less interested. Plenty of more interesting stuff to choose from.

Because adding those parts for a manufacturer isn’t the same as just retrofitting some bits you got from CRC or whatever-

For a start they then carry/support a warranty for those parts. How many units of the expensive bikes do they sell, and that might need to carry quite a few returns and still make a margin.
What’s stock price for those parts – are you looking at those prices? Or do you think manufacturers spec bikes based on what they can get from ebay with a 50% discount.
All their expenses are going up as well. And all steps in the chain need to have a markup, else they go out of business.

The right at the top end off the shelf bikes, the less value your getting imo. That 14k specialized ebike is a prime example as you could save 3k building the same bike (or better) with frame and parts you can buy yourself and arguable have a bike that works better for you with specific parts.

Suprise suprise they are now selling them at 11kish with an instant 20% ‘discount’.

That’s why I bought the fuel exe 9.5 and then upgraded the various crappy parts.

It’s not new though is it, brands rely on the fact that some people don’t have the wherewithal to change parts (either lack of time,skills or both)

 I have no idea what’s going on in big brand MTB anymore and I’m less and less interested. Plenty of more interesting stuff to choose from.

+1

Also on pricing, could it be that bikes like the base model complete build has far smaller profit margin (probably not loss-leading though) compared to the top model? Particularly when the price for the base build is often not that much greater than frame only price. I don’t care enough to search for an example, but that’s frequently the case.

For a start they then carry/support a warranty for those parts.

The component warranty is often with the component manufacturer, not the headline bike brand.

Because adding those parts for a manufacturer isn’t the same as just retrofitting some bits you got from CRC or whatever-

No, it’s waaaaay cheaper.

And they have to carry a warranty on cheap items too.

I suspect they ask those silly prices from a mixture of “because some people will pay it” and “because X rival brand is and we don’t want to look like the cheap option”.

Orange used to be noted for asking more for some full bikes than you could build them at RRP.

I never look at a XR4i Sierra* and think – I could have upgraded the base model body kit / alloys / exhaust and saved £4k. I just don’t know enough about cars / cost of parts to know whether that’s possible but an enthusiast might. Similarly I can’t really comprehend that there could be MTBers that don’t know how to upgrade a fork but perhaps they do exist? And Trek is fleecing them?

*More contemporaneous car references are probably available.

I don’t think someone who wants XTR drivetrain on an ebike is concerned about cost.

wbo

Because adding those parts for a manufacturer isn’t the same as just retrofitting some bits you got from CRC or whatever-

For a start they then carry/support a warranty for those parts.

Same SRAM/Shimano warranty regardless, no additional burden for Trek. And even if it was, the idea that the premium is to cover warranty is ridiculous

chakaping

No, it’s waaaaay cheaper.

Yeah – that’s a big part of it – this is me buying stuff at internet retail prices, as opposed to Trek buying them at OEM cost, which is probalby half what I pay (and even less when it comes to their own brand Bontrager stuff)

Superficial

I never look at a XR4i Sierra* and think – I could have upgraded the base model body kit / alloys / exhaust and saved £4k

True – but if your XR4 Sierra had the same engine/power as the base Sierra, and just had upgraded suspension and wheels, would you pay double the price for it?

solamanda

I don’t think someone who wants XTR drivetrain on an ebike is concerned about cost.

You can pay an extra 1000 to replace the XTR with a 700 quid XX1 AXS upgrade kit. Although you do get an AXS reverb in that, it’s almost good value in comparison

True – but if your XR4 Sierra had the same engine/power as the base Sierra, and just had upgraded suspension and wheels, would you pay double the price for it?

I don’t know – because I don’t know how much it’d cost to replace suspension and wheels. Perhaps it costs £1k, perhaps it’s £10k – genuinely I have no idea. I mean, I could take a guess, but I wouldn’t be confident it’d be accurate.

The margins in the OP’s example are ~80% markup on the upgraded spec. Which, to be clear, is pretty disgraceful behaviour by Trek IMHO. But does Johnny Wannabe-Weekend-Warrior know enough about the industry to realise he’s being fleeced?

It’s probably also this:

“because X rival brand is and we don’t want to look like the cheap option”

Orange used to be noted for asking more for some full bikes than you could build them at RRP.

back when droppers could be considered optional extras on AM/trail/whatever bikes, Orange upcharged you full RRP* for a mk1 reverb (external hose in those days mind you) and didnt even give you the static seatpost which you would need every time that reverb went off for a warranty replacement.

*which was probably at least £50 more than you could get the same thing from CRC or whoever from in a constant state of discount.

The bike shop in Thetford Forest often had the range topping Scott XC bikes in that were about twice the price of the next model for no benefit that a mortal could realise. They would also then be sold off with a huge discount at year’s end.

Isn’t that the point of Sworks and the like? Get people in to look at a fancy halo model and then the normal one looks a bargain as its 99% of the bike at 50% of the cost. If you actually sell one at RRP all the better!

Superficial

But does Johnny Wannabe-Weekend-Warrior know enough about the industry to realise he’s being fleeced?

Am sure there are lots who don’t realise, and as folks have said, it’s not uncommon. Just struck by how bad it is here. Most brands charge you about retail price for upgrades, Trek went ahead and doubled it.

As above, spesh sworks complete bikes all cost about 2k more than the price of the individual parts at rrp. Madness

I heavily suspect however that if you are in the market for a 12 grand bike you aren’t too concerned whether you can get if for slightly cheaper if you spend an hour or two buying all the bits individually

Manufactures must know that value for money is something which they need to focus on far more at lower price points, where folks want the best bike for their cash. Where as at the top end, for most folks it’s a vanity purchase.

Judging by the numbers of very flash e-bikes in Wharncliffe yesterday, people aren’t as concerned about VFM IRL as they are on STW.

Interesting observations, I hadn’t really given it much thought but it is useful to know.

Isn’t that the point of Sworks and the like? Get people in to look at a fancy halo model and then the normal one looks a bargain as its 99% of the bike at 50% of the cost

👍

I have one of those fancy pants sworks frames on my best road bike. I only bought it as I broke my current frame and due to the shear lack of availability of framesets, I’d be spending similar or more on a complete bike then selling off all the bits I wasn’t going to use, so it didn’t actually end up costing me much more

I can confirm it doesn’t make me go any faster, and the weight of the bike is pretty much identical to my mates standard tarmac with similar components

I think it’s fair enough. If they can cover some of the fixed costs of developing new models etc. with some extra cash from the top spec models then that’s fine by me.

I’d be far more worried if they weren’t giving value on the cheaper bikes

Expensive things are bought by people with more money. If they like the bike they’ll be happy and not care about what all the bits costs

I’m not saying it’s right, but you’re not factoring in convenience, or the time and labour to put together the equivalent bike for less money. Most people don’t spend much time surfing around sites like this to know that you can buy a Lyrik Ultimate for 20 Euros from großeschwarzeWurst.de or whatever the latest on-trend discount site is at the moment.

This also reminds me of coming back to the UK and watching Wheeler Dealers at my parents. They go on about making 100 quid profit but forget to factor in the three weeks sourcing parts and rebuilding the car!

There’s a good chance the Trek dealer selling the 14k bike has a set of Bonty wheels or a Lyrik in stock, and the prices I used aren’t German discount either, Lyrik RRP is about 1k.

As for time spent, an hour on Google to find and order and an hour to swap the parts. If two hours is worth 3k to you, I’m ready to become your mechanic.

Judging by the numbers of very flash e-bikes in Wharncliffe yesterday, people aren’t as concerned about VFM IRL as they are on STW.

Joys of 0% finance, I’d be intrigued if the advent of 0%, prices jumped.

Apparently there are lots of companies sitting on 2022 stock, with 2023 bikes either inbound or already here and they won’t/can’t release them. Over supply and silly prices, I have no sympathy what so ever. When spesh are knocking off 3K, they are still making plenty of profit.

Not sure I follow OP, you’re complaining that a very expensive thing is more expensive than a just plain expensive thing?

Both look like a rip off to me TBH…

As for time spent, an hour on Google to find and order and an hour to swap the parts. If two hours is worth 3k to you, I’m ready to become your mechanic.

You know what you are looking for though. I’d say that most ‘casual’ mountain bikers either don’t know, or only have rudimental knowledge of seat post diameters, hub diameters etc etc. I’ve had loads of people over the years coming in asking for something along the likes of ‘can I have a spoke for a Trek Remedy that’s around 10 years old?’. Then they get pee’d because you can’t immediately give them what they want. For that person, it would take months of learning to get to the point of being able to spec their dream bike, buy all the parts from probably multiple locations, and then installing them successfully with the tools that they also had to buy.

In the same way, I could replace the timing belt on my old car as there are enough resources out there to allow me to do this myself, but I’d rather get ‘ripped off’ and leave my car at a garage for the day rather than waste my life doing all the research and probably having my car in pieces for three weeks.

Superficial
Free Member
I never look at a XR4i Sierra* and think – I could have upgraded the base model body kit / alloys / exhaust and saved £4k.

99% sure you couldn’t.

XR4i had a V6, only other Sierra with a v6 was the top of the range Ghia. 😉

Cosworths were all 4 pot and turbos.

You’d have to pay me £14k just to walk out the shop with a Trek… They must win the award for blandest bike brand on earth. Ultimate Meh.

I’ve had loads of people over the years coming in asking for something along the likes of ‘can I have a spoke for a Trek Remedy that’s around 10 years old?’. Then they get pee’d because you can’t immediately give them what they want. For that person, it would take months of learning to get to the point of being able to spec their dream bike, buy all the parts from probably multiple locations, and then installing them successfully with the tools that they also had to buy.

well I for one have a bike not much newer than that and would probably ask that kind of question! It’s along way from looking at a spec sheet and being able to then google the relevant parts.

I get your point that not everyone could do it, but I don’t think you need to be a particularly knowledgeable bike expert to identify all the bits you’d need. In fact my very first mtb, a heckler (and first bike id owned in 20 odd years) was bought as a frame alone, and then parts I sourced from crc based on the spec on the Santa Cruz website. Couldn’t afford to get exactly the same thing, but it wasn’t hard to work out what parts I needed before handing them over in a very big box to the lbs to build up.

I honestly can’t believe Wbo tried to justify it, epic fail from me, along with some others missing the point, probably on purpose in some cases for reasons beyond me. Bottom line, there is no justification, and for those thinking otherwise, well it’s your damn fault we’ll all continue to be shafted by the bike companies, well done. I only hope you aren’t applying that baffling rationale to everything else you’re buying.

@honourablegeorge did you buy one then ?

I have the same dilemma, are we expecting a new model soon ??

It’s easy to justify on the warranty . If your expensive bike fails and you send it back ,and get new, do you expect them to just change the frame and send it back with the old worn out bits? No, you get a heap of new stuff, and that stuff isn’t covered by the Shimano/SRAM/whatever warranty as as far as they’re concerned, not their problem.

There’s also markup up and down the line.

Do I think some bikes are outrageously expensive, yes I do, and often for rubbish.  VFM for a lot of cycling stuff is horrible, and the whole sport is hideously fashion led (and the big boys are not top of that crime list).  But I think the example in the OP is hopelessly naive, and ignores the fact that buying a derailleur and putting it on a warrantied bike is somehow in a vacuum of costs

We are probably looking at this the wrong way round.  The 14k model is there to make you look at the models lower down and thing they are good value.  It’s also a prestige thing, we are buying a bike from a company that has 14k models rather than Decathlon.  Also though we probably aren’t the market for this stuff

I took advantage of this, when I bought my Trek Marlin HT, about a decade ago.
Test rode the top end bike, at a demo day, and loved the way it rode. However, it had SRAM shifters, and all of my bikes are Shimano equipped, so it didn’t want to mix things.
Bought the bottom of the range bike (same frame across the range) upgraded the parts, sold on the stock stuff (apart from the boat anchor forks) and saved about £400.

It’s easy to justify on the warranty. If your expensive bike fails and you send it back ,and get new, do you expect them to just change the frame and send it back with the old worn out bits?

Yes, and if the shop who warranty it isn’t the same as the shop you bought it off, you could well be charged labour for rebuilding the old parts onto the new frame.

No one expects them to replace anything but the damaged part do they?