My local spoons used to have a lot of bother with kids hanging around outside, with a few mates inside who were ’18’ bringing drinks out to them, so they really clamped down on anyone who vaguely looked like a youngster regardless of gender or ID. It wasn’t the bar staff being difficult or ‘ist’ it was an operational hazard.

Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ? One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread

If im being honest it irked me somewhat , not that i was being excluded , more that the general attitude was one that the posters werent prepared to explain to several other bemused people what the hell it was all about and you shouldnt ask.

Lol. It’s one thing getting a fake ID with all the tipex, photocopying and cutting a photo to size to get a drink, and quite another to changing your actual appearance and gender to get a gin. She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don’t understand.

Sorry, this thread has reminded me of Allthegear. I hope that she is well.

Well, then you know why young people now have to carry official documentation, such as a passport, to prove their age. Official documentation that can prove very difficult and expensive to get updated when transitioning, especially if you are young, which most people needing proof of age are.

Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the “urgent”) ..

Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn’t seem to be THAT difficult considering…
Try a list of the 10 most difficult things and 10 most expensive things for a young person transitioning.. does applying for a citizenship card really make either top 10?

One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread

LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been “are there any female bike mechanics on here?” you’d have likely just browsed on past. Also see “non-ovulators”, “people who have periods”. etc.

The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled

So drop your prejudice…
“teen who didn’t look like their photo ID refused service in pub…”

She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.

Rather than what, “the humiliation” of applying for a new citizenship card photo?

Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration… the humiliation.

I was refused service in a pub when I was 25. Their minimum age was 21. I was with my workmates and did actually feel pretty humiliated. Especially as they ribbed me about it for ages afterwards.

Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration… the humiliation.

Absolutely no comparison what so ever.

Absolutely no comparison what so ever.

True, I can’t read without them.

True, I can’t read without them.

Have you considered a career as a bouncer? Good eyesight apparently not a pre-requisite.

I’ll ask again, do you really believe that a young woman would use a male passport and claim she was transgender by cutting her hair and wearing a wig just to have a drink down the pub?

I don’t think that anyone on this thread or indeed anywhere is suggesting that as a likely scenario, it’s a (ludicrous) straw man argument.

Rather, do you think that it’s 100% impossible that a 17-year old genuinely transgender woman might borrow her similar-looking older brother’s passport in order to get served in a bar?

True, I can’t read without them.

You can sure as hell type though.

Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?

It’s not a “thing.” It’s been the conventionally accepted “normal” that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.

One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity

#AllLivesMatter ?

LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been “are there any female bike mechanics on here?” you’d have likely just browsed on past. Also see “non-ovulators”, “people who have periods”. etc.

See that was the thing to me they were all just people doing a job , it seemed like it needed to be labelled for some reason, I personally didnt understand what it had to do with being a bike mechanic in the first place but it seemed because of the topic title to develop into some issue? Cripes

It’s not a “thing.” It’s been the conventionally accepted “normal” that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.

Really great explanation. I had never heard of it.

Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?

CIS means the same, trans means different.

@Poah sorry chap im just a thicko bike mechanic I dont understand it at all Google search just makes me scratch my head as is.

@stevextc

Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the “urgent”) ..

Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn’t seem to be THAT difficult considering…

another one that doesn’t read the thread

What kind of evidence do you need to be able to get a citizenship card then?

Clue: it’s very easy if you’ve already got official ID in the name and image you want. If you haven’t it’s remarkably hard, possibly with justification. Hence why allowances need to be made in situations like these.

@scotroutes

My BiL has neither passport nor driving license but needed photo ID to take internal UK flights. He got a Citizens Card without any hassle.

what did he use as proof of identity then?

Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things? Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards. Which ones do the bar staff actually recognise?
How do they know its not fake?

oh and +1 to faerie about ATG/Rachel

I hate to think what she’s thinking if she still lurks and is reading some of the prejudice still being shown on here.

She was a star in helping me to come to terms and ask the right questions when my then daughter came out to us 2 years ago about how she couldn’t go on living in her body any more and just wanted to go to sleep and never wake up.  About how she wanted to take a knife to her own breast buds. How we still battle every month about why he can’t get treated by UK law and as a result has to bleed into his pants every month because he was born in the wrong body and refuses to use tampons. Tough to read? How hard do you think it is for a child to live that?

So yeah, when someone refuses to recognise your new identity whether from prejudice or ignorance, it’s a lot more ***ing raw than just going on to the next place and not crying about it.

Jon, I think your son is lucky to have you as his father. Ignore the idiots here.

Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards.

Some of the accredited brands are here:

Apply for card

And, yes, they are generally laughed at in pubs, good for age related travel and entertainment tickets though (where getting it wrong just risks someone getting a cheap ticket). Young people use passports and driving licences for a reason… they are easy to recognise and hard to fake… and it’s important that staff learn to accept the mismatching that occurs with people transitioning, especially young people who can not easily get their documents to match their gender, because the current law around this is an arse. I have no idea if the staff in this example got this wrong this time, but it’s good to hear the chain taking the issue seriously. No idea why so many of us can’t do likewise.

faerie

The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don’t understand.

What evidence, and specifically what law shows a refusal in this case to be clearly discriminatory? Please don’t refer me to the PDF you posted, it is not law.

The licensing acts for both England & Wales and Scotland specify that evidence of age provided by a punter must be sufficient to convince a reasonable person.

Given you can get a criminal record for selling items to underage people. If you don’t look like the picture in the ID of course people are going to be really careful.

A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.

What if they don’t always look the same? Wear wigs? Dye their hair… etc, etc… you must have the imagination to realise that a young person going through this… no scratch that… any young person… might be changing how they look at this time of their life, especially when on a night out. And the ‘big’ documents are expensive and difficult to change. People don’t have to change their “look” to match their ID, or visa versa, you just have to be able or tell it is them in the photo.

A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.

Read the thread before commenting, eh?

Cougar it’s rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.

Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.

Can someone explain the CIS thing to me

+1

I don’t think cougar’s reply made it any clearer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/35015487

faerie

Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.

No thank-you faerie, i’d just like you to explain specifically what bit of law you are talking about which defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory because I don’t understand why you think it is.

Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things?

IME from my days as an underage alcoholic-in-training, many pubs don’t care. Rather, it’s arse-covering, the police turn up and find a bunch of pissed 16 year olds, the pub goes “well, they had ID.” End of. Times might’ve changed in the intermediate 30 years though.

Cougar it’s rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.

It’s not a stretch in the slightest, back when I was nominally underage some of my peers borrowed older siblings’ ID plenty of times. I remember being a mid-teens teenager, I was a big ol’ introverted swot and even I had fake ID. Getting served in a pub at 16-17 was pretty much competitive.

It’s not what actually happened here this is true, but put on the spot in the heat of the moment and without the benefit of hindsight is it not plausible that that’s what the staff incorrectly assumed?

A pub is presented with a teenager wearing a long blonde wig and an ID that they seemingly bear no resemblance to and says ‘male’ on it, is it so outlandish to countenance that they just didn’t want the hassle of potentially serving underage drinkers, rather than leaping to the conclusion with cast iron certainty that they kicked her out because they were bigots?

defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory

I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, or indeed acted in a discriminatory way, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).

that they kicked her out because they were bigots?

Mistakes can be made. Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one. The company involved have said they aim to do better in this regard. Well done them. No one is haranguing the staff. Some people are desperate to paint this is a non-event, and that apologies and promises to do better are unnecessary. Or worse, comparing the effect on the life of the woman involved to them not wearing the right footwear.

kelvin

I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).

With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting:

faerie
According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology.

I don’t think cougar’s reply made it any clearer.

It means that the gender prescribed to you at birth is in line with your actual gender. Ie, most people. For many CIS people it is demonstrably difficult to countenance any other situation but for many wide and varied reasons it does happen and despite what the TERFs would have you believe it’s nothing to do with creating a cover story in order to molest women in toilets.

To put that another way, you know the ever-increasing LGBT+ acronym? If you’ve never considered that any of that applies to you, you’re CIS.

Personally I hate the term, it’s all too often used pejoratively, but here we are and my gripe of language is of lesser import.

TERFs

Really Cougar?

With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting

The protection in law is there, it is bound to be one of the factors informing an apology, but that does not mean they are admitting to breaking the law, or that they would be found to have done so if it went to court… and none of know if they would be, we don’t know enough of the details. We haven’t even seen the photoID.

Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law

Im not sure that section is relevant here, it merely defines the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Or a transexual. The young lady describes herself as transgender, and no mention is made or her intent to transition sex, as the act refers to.

Are you sure you have the right section?

Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one.

I 100% agree with you. But again, is this what happened?

If the problem was that it said M rather than F on the passport then absolutely, this is bang out of order and very clearly a training issue.

If the problem was that she looked nowt like her photo ID then not so much. That’s what photo ID is for, otherwise what you have there is “ID.”

It’s a complex situation and jumping to either conclusion is problematic. Trans people need consideration and empathy, but teenagers are sneaky bastards. If aged 17 I’d thought that I could get served in pubs if I borrowed my brother’s ID and got my sister to slap a bit of lippy on me as a diversionary tactic then the only thing that would have stopped me was the fact I was an only child. It’s really, really not a great leap that bar staff might have erred on the side of caution here. They just unfortunately got it wrong in this case.

The fact that they’re now going to train staff to recognise trans people and apply a bit more sensitivity rather than default assuming “git in a wig” is great, that should be the take-away from all this.

Really Cougar?

Dunno what specifically you’re “really”ing at, but that wasn’t directed at anyone posting here.

But again, is this what happened?

Again, I have no idea. I haven’t seen the ID. I don’t know enough about what happened. And nor do those saying it is down to the individual to make their ID match their “look”, or that being wrongly turned away in these circumstances is like being turned away for wearing trainers.

I have no idea if the staff got it wrong, and the chain seems to have handled this all very well. Why has that invited so many people to post so much nonsense about the problems faced by young trans people as regards ID though?