I ride with a MTB group every Tuesday (roughly 2-2.5hr off road, fairly pacey with plenty of climbing) and I ride a hilly 35mile chaingang on a Wednesday night with my road racing team (very pacey, 5-600m climbing, thru-and-off on the flats, village sprints etc).

The rest of the week can be a bit hit and miss, usually a big weekend ride and the odd interval/turbo session thrown in, but all work-dependent.

On last night’s road ride, my legs felt absolutely shot due to a very climby session on Tuesday, and I usually feel a bit fatigued from the previous night.

Obviously, the 2 tough(ish) nights back to back aren’t ideal, but I’m kinda stuck with them. Is it going to be holding me back to ride hard whilst fatigued? Is there anything I can do to make these 2 sessions work better?

During summer, I’ll be riding club TTs on Thursdays which will no doubt compound the problem!

Any thoughts or advice much appreciated…

G

Rest well on Monday and recovery ride Thursday. Two hard days back to back is fine, even three if you want to do a sweetspot or similar on the third.

Just try not to allow the fatigue to build up, recovery is more important than training sometimes.

Cheers Schmiken, any idea how I can avoid the hollow leg feeling I had last night? They started to brighten up after about 30 miles, but power was down.

My road team are gonna start thinking I’m crap! haha

G

Good sleep and good food. Make sure taking recovery foods on board soon after hard efforts, if I don’t I find the next days training hard work.
Also are you stretching well ?

Could definitely stretch more… I tend to stretch prior to riding but it’s often “neglected” afterwards 😳

If you’re using a Heart Rate or Power Meter then Strava premium will show you your fitness/freshness graph which is a useful way of seeing if you need to back off for a bit.

In terms of recovery between the two hard sessions, do you do protein shakes after a hard ride? I just have a pint of milk with nesquik after a tough session and that seems to make a difference. I’m sure others will attest to similar ‘fluid + carb + protein’ solutions having a positive affect on recovery.

I always try to refuel quickly after rides, and a pint of nesquick before bed. Maybe I’m just getting weaker!

I’ll check out that freshness graph, I’ve not seen that before.

Thanks!

If you have 30 mins what about an easy spin on the turbo or round the block first thing on Wednesday morning. Alternatively, a longer warm up before you meet your road club?

Compression tights. Recent research suggests that recovery element isn’t just a placebo effect.

I had considered recovery rides on the rollers the morning after… Legs have felt like someone else’s today so I’m going to do a VERY gentle roller sesh tonight…

If you’re using a Heart Rate or Power Meter then Strava premium will show you your fitness/freshness graph which is a useful way of seeing if you need to back off for a bit.

It’s not really! It’s quite interesting to see trends and what not, but it’s not sufficiently accurate that I’d take decisions on day to day sessions using it.

Good sleep and good food

+1

njee – agreed. Was meaning it’s a good way of tracking of you’ve been over-doing it a bit so thanks for the clarification.

When i work out a solution to the dead leg feeling i will let you know.

Static stretching will just compound the dead leg feeling, don’t bother. Spend the time doing a longer warm up on the bike.

Compression tights. Recent research suggests that recovery element isn’t just a placebo effect.

Well since it’s been mentioned… I have been using these a lot recently, mostly compression socks, and I reckon it helps me. Good if you’ve not got the time to sit with your feet up after a hard session.

d what not, but it’s not sufficiently accurate that I’d take decisions on day to day sessions using it.

I’ve used the PMC chart on TrainingPeaks which I think is a lot more detailed. Good for planning and getting a feel for what’s going on, managing peaks and troughs, not really for making day to day decisions though.

I’d get something better than nesquick too, loads of simple sugars in it which isn’t great.

Two hard sessions back to back is perfectly fine, clearly you’re doing it now and feeling tired, but hay trainings supposed to be hard.

Rest day before and after, take it easier evey forth week or so.

If you’re serious about the TT in the summer then I’d probably cut short the Wednesday ride or replace it altogether, depending on how serious the TT was.

I’d get something better than nesquick too, loads of simple sugars in it which isn’t great.

I use SIS recovery shakes too, nesquick with milk is a lot cheaper and tastier and I’ve never noticed any difference.

I notice the difference if I don’t have either!

Yep, I agree with the Chef, the Wednesday night rides need to be a sweetspot sesh or sub threshold if I want to be competitive.

I’m experimenting with 30min sweetspot twice a day at the moment, see if I can iron out those dead spots without over training…

I’m experimenting with 30min sweetspot twice a day at the moment, see if I can iron out those dead spots without over training…

Twice a day every day? This on top of 3 hard days sounds like quite a lot of work at a high intensity. Sweetspot is only a few percent down on threshold and long sessions are still fatiguing. You need to apply a stress then go easy giving the body time to adapt. Bashing out long sweetspot sessions twice a day in the hope that the legs will come good doesn’t sound that sensible.

Also as Chef says, decide on priorities. You could maybe do the Tuesday and Wednesday sessions on alternate weeks when the TT’s kick off. Depends how fresh you want to be. Also different people deal with it in different ways. I find if I tend to perform better if I have an easy session a couple of days before a race, then a harder session the day before.

I figured 30 mins was fairly short, and I’m trying to improve lactate threshold as well…

I’ve not done double sessions yet, but I was planning it for next week… I’m also trying to drop a bit of timber… 😐

And not every day, I was thinking:
Monday – Rest, Tuesday – MTB Group ride, Wed – Road Chainy, Thu – recovery rollers, Fri – 2 x 30min sweetspot, Sat – gentle ride, Sunday – Group Ride.

In the past, I’ve performed best when I’m riding every day… When I’m on a training block, a complete rest day leaves me with very blocky legs.

Like I say, I’m just experimenting, but for me, sweetspot is a good intensity to burn fat, maintain form and not overtrain. Some useful food for thought though..

How are you determining sweetspot? Is this on the turbo? Using a PM or just going by feel? Do you do any easier rides?

I’m using a turbo and HRM. Going at around 75% max HR…

Weekends are often a problem for me with other commitments, so I’m trying to find what is the best combination.

I can manage a gentle/flat ride most Saturdays which would make Sunday a rest day and do something Monday instead…

I’m using a turbo and HRM. Going at around 75% max HR…

For sweetspot? How did you determine that? Seems a bit low. For me that would be mid zone 2. Sweetspot for me is around 90% max HR. Rarely train to HR though as it’s so variable. Are you using TrainerRoad on the turbo?

Going at around 75% max HR

sub threshold zones are better determined from LTHR.

Max HR is 195, threshold is 171… I’m doing my sweetspot around 145bpm…

Going by max and threshold that seems really low. Sweetspot is just under threshold. I don’t think there’s an “official” definition but I’d say your sweetspot would be around 165 to 170 (i.e. just a little below threshold). What’s your zones?

1: 97-117
2: 117-136
3: 136-156
4: 156-175
5: 175-195

So your sweetspot efforts are mid z3? I’d say you should be up nearer 165. Mind to high z4. Ideal is to be just a little under threshold (upwards of 90%.)

From TrainingPeaks…

1. Sub-Threshold/Sweet Spot Work
“Sweet Spot” occurs at 83 to 97 percent of your FTP and riding here can help improve the aerobic, steady state efforts that characterize FTP. Sweet Spot gets it’s name because it is a balanced amount of intensity and volume. You can achieve more positive physiological adaptations than if you were to ride harder at zone 4/threshold. By riding below your FTP it is a more repeatable workout and won’t take quite as much out of you. Do these efforts on a stretch of road without interruptions, and focus on maintaining a steady effort. A steady grade 3 to 5 percent hill works very well.

It’s a bit trickier going by HR as the relationship to power isn’t linear.

Ah, I’d always assumed SP was around 75% of max… Need to work a bit harder on those sessions then!

Perhaps 2 of those a day would be a bit much…

It’s not unreasonable, but every day may be pushing it a bit. Depends what training load you are use to.

Eat. Your legs might feel tired but they’ll never keep going if you haven’t got the fuel. Your first ride could easily consume 1500 to 2000 kcal and if you’re really going for it, deplete completely your glycogen stores. Unless you eat carbs like a starved horse, you won’t top those up ready for the next day’s thrash. Typically, a trained 70 kg man could store 1800 cal of glycogen. To replace that, you’d have to eat half a kilo of dry pasta.