worst accidents I’ve seen have been sail boats!

Yeah the worst accident I’ve seen was a sailboat – a Laser a friend of mine was sailing got hit by a jetski driven by somebody who didn’t know what they were doing (oh and no insurance either which made things interesting). Laser hit just in front of the mast and a complete write off. A couple of feet further back and it wouldn’t have only been the boat…

Yeah when I was a lad we had a similar sized boat with a 90hp motor on the back, perfectly nice for water skiing behind so 300hp seems crazy.

A half decent heavy water skier would stop a 90hp boat whilst crossing the wake, to the point of being completely useless. Proper ski specific boats are actually 250hp or more, for torque more than top speed tho, our boat has a 315hp V8 mercruiser, but top speed is only 45mph.. IMO 300hp isn’t that big a deal, unless the rib wasn’t built for that power and/or weight bolted on the back.

I’d have to ask Greg why did you cross the wake and when you hit trouble at least cut the throttle.

Who needs an engine ?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTEXsZO-PVI[/video]

with that kind of power on tap for a boat that didn;t look much bigger than 17′ long. Is that really correct?

Our boat is 16ft and has a 315hp V8 Mercruiser, will I die???

Our boat is 16ft and has a 315hp V8 Mercruiser, will I die???

If you don’t use a kill cord then you could. The main point of this thread!

Not much of a sailist myself, but my brother is.

He has a yacht moored at Gosport, and occasionally I go down and have a bimble about under his tutorlage. What never fails to amaze me, even as a non sailist, is the number of self evident numpties that get out on the water.

Simple examples:

1) Gin Place plowing out of harbour at night, with kids without life jackets playing on the fore deck. Apart from the fact the guy was doing perhaps 3 times the harbour speed limit, the obvious potential for one or more of the kids to not only go overboard, but over the side and under the vessel was incredible. Not by any manner of means unusual.

2) Large rib (similar to that above) tied up to a jetty at the rear only. Mr Weekend Warrior puts the bloody thing into gear and revs the bugger up whilst still tied up. Net result, boat pivots on the mooring and literaly launches itself onto the jetty, scattering people in all directions. Very fortunate that no one was actually killed.

3) My personal favourite though, being some tit that decided that “sail before steam” applies when a Brittany Ferry is negotiating the exit to the harbour with approx 10 metres clearance either side on a ship the size of a pretty large block of flats and thus decides that he can sail straight under its bow. We were there when the harbour police brought him in, and he was still protesting that it was his ancient right, and the ship should have given way. The Twunt!

3 incidents, one weekend.

So overall I have to say I am in agreement that some sort of controls need to be in place, not so much to stop people doing themselves in, an outcome that mostly I might find myself comfortable with, but more to protect the innocent from their actions. i.e. this weekend tragedy, should it turn out to be Dad being a dick, would have an outcome whereby 3 out of 4 injured parties weren’t him, and thats not to count the others also put at risk by the incident.

Who needs a boat?

World Speed Record

I have a very good friend who is a RNLI volunteer at Gravesend lifeboat station.
He reckons at least 70% of all their call outs are to recover complete fools who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a boat, and have brought the situation on themselves.

To be fair though, I work with the Royal Navy and they make some pretty huge cock-ups aswell.

[/quote] agent007 – Member

Who needs a boat?

You do need a boat for the current world record. 😀

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZVIj5TUSKE[/video]

I was involved in this for a few years, free safety advice from the rnli. Unfortunately very few were interested in it, and those who did ask for a safety check were those who were already very safety conscious. Those who were lacking in safety knowledge didn’t feel the need to ask for free advice.

The boat looks a fair bit bigger than I initially thought, so 300hp not completely outlandish after all, but still a lot. I wasn’t saying it caused the accident I was just saying that it was clearly a high performance boat with that much power and would need to be driven properly as a result.

Well it looks horribly like a vicious case of Darwinism to me if the Kill cord is a) the original and b) fully serviceable.

This would possibly explain the attitude of a driver gunning it with kayakers nearby (if press reports are to be believed).

My mind is now going down the toxicology route…

Always wear a killcord, even with our 2hp outboard. Pleasantly surprised by the lack of idiocy in Salcombe, although it’s difficult to see if others have killcords on or not. Must admit that having a harbour speed limit of 6/8 knots is really nice, much quieter and better for sailing. Some pretty rediculous boats down there mind (2x350hp outboard Boston Whalers for example). A terrible tragedy that could probably have been avoided.

It is awful. Let us not jump to too many conclusions before inquiry is complete.
As RYA PB instructor, it is amazing how relaxed people are about wearing cords.
Last year three sailing instructors went for a play after work, all were thrown from boat mucking around and one was killed, even though kill cord was worn. :/

Matt,

Did the boat carry on even after they were thrown off or was the fatality due to injuries sustained in coming off the boat?

The accident last year? As I understand (conversation between my boss and boss of that centre) was a fall at high speed and the fatal injury was immediate, not boat coming round again. I could not tell you the mechanism of; or the injury it caused.

Wowsers! I think too often the risks aren’t fully appreciated with boating in general.

I know experienced sailors who shun safety gear as if its beneath them. I’d rather look a bit of a geek (not difficult to manage) than too cool for school and regret it.

I think too often the risks aren’t fully appreciated with boating in general.

Do not lump a sailing boat, low speed engine boats etc in with high speed powerboats etc. A bit like comparing a pootle in the park with a Downhill track…
RIBs can be powerful things, and like a car, need some respect. In which case, they are safe.

Matt,

As a user of both, I’m very aware of the differences and the parallels.
I also know that ‘pootling’ in a power boat at high or low speed(as evidenced by this tragedy) can go wrong as quickly as it can in a sailing yacht and vice versa. It’s just that it doesn’t take long to be half-competent in a power boat which is where the danger lies and respect isn’t built as quickly as competence. Look at jet skis; in five minutes from cold you’re a pro (and bored!) but you won’t have any seamanship in that time.

The power of a fully canvassed boat in the right conditions can be phenomenal. I did a Biscay crossing that resembled a 2 day rally stage! Great fun but certainly not a pootle!

Sailing tends to build respect at a similar pace to competence as it takes far longer to reach the same level. Mistakes tend to be very costly (£) or unforgiving.

However my point was: what they have in common are large numbers of owners who have poor seamanship and risk-awareness, possibly because no legislation exists forcing people to take adequate training.

News is confirming that kill cord wasn’t in use.

It was fitted but not attached to driver.
It’s happened before and it’ll happen again.

Horrible for the surviving family, gonna be lots of “why didn’t I make him use it”, although as an executive for sky (?) he was prob a fairly alpha personality.

Very sad.

I thought they said it wasn’t clear who was driving at the time?

I don’t know what to say really, totally preventable tragedy that occurred because whomever was driving the boat thought ‘it won’t happen to me’.

I used to spend my summer holidays at uni driving powerboats in sunny places for a living (in between teaching the guests how to sail and windsurf), and the use of the kill cord was drummed into us, for good reason.

One one memorable occasion while I was driving the engine controls jammed at the console, and the only thing I could do was point it at the beach and then pull the kill cord to stop the engine. Such a vital piece of equipment.

True, I didn’t realise that, I (prob like most people) just assumes it was the father.

Apologies, take some of it back.

Still horrible for the survivors, although I guess the whole story hasn’t, and prob won’t, come out

As a non boatie some interesting and informative posts here. News reporting the investigation concludes driver didn’t use kill cord. Driver not named. Mother had leg amputated.

And as a non boatie I am gobsmacked there is no formal licence or training requirement before operating a 300hp vehicle with the lives of several other people in your hands. I need to take an extra test to be allowed to drive a minibus at work.

And as a non boatie I am gobsmacked there is no formal licence or training requirement before operating a 300hp vehicle with the lives of several other people in your hands. I need to take an extra test to be allowed to drive a minibus at work.

Many years ago, I gained an RYA Powerboat Level 2 qualification, which I required for the work I was doing. This was a 2 day course I think, and I also needed a first aid certificate to make it valid. Of course, this was because I was driving powerboats for a holiday company. I don’t know if such a thing is necessary for private use.

Driver not named.

Which smacks of legal intimidation. The fact that the father was driving was widely reported initially. So much for a free press.

Edit: Hmm, just thought I’d recheck those earliest reports, none of them seem to name Nick as driving. I imagined it all? (shrugs)

Edit II: Regardless, he was boat owner, and therefore responsible (actually, obviously not) culpable.

Just to chip in with my tuppence worth…

winston_dog – Member
AFAIK all outboards will start to circle eventually. However, this would have had quite a serious hydraulic powered steering system which would have held it in a position relative to the wheel position.

Generally speaking the wheel would be pulled over by the operator getting thrown out of the boat. Assuming they were holding the wheel at the time.

Driving RIBs is part of my job, see profile.

ANY boat – big or small, powerful or not, inboard or outboard, will circle without someone at the wheel (autopilot excepted). Even if the helm is midships there’ll be some turning moment. But, the smaller the boat and the bigger the engine makes for a tighter circle, and less time for anybody in the water to get clear, indeed, even if they are conscious enough to to so.

Also, checking the operation and attachment of the kill cord is one of the many things you just do.

It’s only an interim report, a pdf on the MIAB site. It mostly stresses the safety cord issue. One assumes there will be more later, whether from them or at an inquest.

And as a non boatie I am gobsmacked there is no formal licence or training requirement before operating a 300hp vehicle with the lives of several other people in your hands. I need to take an extra test to be allowed to drive a minibus at work.

You could drive a minibus without any licence at all if you were on private land, and since the sea isnt owned by anyone i dont know how youd stop people.

People do stupid stuff all the time, and sometimes they have no idea of the risks.

TuckerUK – Member
Driver not named.
Which smacks of legal intimidation. The fact that the father was driving was widely reported initially. So much for a free press.

No it is standard MAIB practice. Firstly this is not in the final report so there is no need to get into the detail. Generally speaking a Safety Bulletin like this is only used where there is a glaring immediate point to make which they think needs publicised before the full investigation is complete and reported.

Even when the MAIB are finished they don’t usually name people as their role is NOT to assign blame simply to identify lessons for the future.

There was widespread assumption / speculation at the time that the Father was driving at the time – but I’ve not seen that suggested by any official source so its probably just stereotyping.

Edit II: Regardless, he was boat owner, and therefore responsible (actually, obviously not) culpable.

really? unlike cars boats don’t necessarily have one named person responsible for them, but just like cars if you are a passenger in your own car – the driver is primarily responsible.

{quote] I guess the whole story hasn’t, and prob won’t, come out[/quote] it depends what you mean by “the whole story” – there will be a detailed MAIB report (probably 6-9 months from now) which will include pretty much anything a nosey by-stander might want to know about the circumstances.

Stato, fair point about private land, but possibly airspace would be a better comparison. Not trolling life long boaters BTW.

CTM – if the boat was being invented today it might be a regulated space but the reality is, like the bicycle, and the horse, boats have been around for a long time and relatively few people die doing it! How would you regulate, control, license such an environment and who would pay for it? There would only be logic in doing so if you believed it would have a substantial benefit to safety (or the exchequer!). Its not clear that tougher rules and licensing would achieve that (stats are no better in places with such systems). In many accidents the person would have met the likely standard for a license.

I guess you could apply similar logic to canoes, skis (esp. cross country / back country skis), rock climbing, open water swimming or even walking. Until these things start killing innocent bystanders (rather than participants) there is probably no real argument for state intervention.

Not a boater myself, through lack of available cash, and living 70 miles from the nearest sea, but I would love to have a boat like the RIB involved in the accident, or a Boston Whaler, somewhere down on the south coast, like Devon.
I spend time down there, and around Weston and Brean, and one thing that I’m continually aware of is the way the water can change its character, sometimes in the space of an hour or less, just by the wind swinging round.
As well as using the safety leash, I’d insist on seatbelts as well, even without the boat swinging sideways as it appears to be the case here, just hitting sudden chop like a tidal race will chuck a biggish boat around, let a,one a smaller, lighter boat, and I couldn’t bear to be responsible for someone bouncing out of their seat and being lost over the side.
It’s amazing how far out people will go, too:

These two were bashing around at the end of Brean Down, which stretches a mile out from Weston-Super-Mare, and when the tide’s coming in, like when I took these, there’s a hell of a chop and tidal race just in front of the SeaDoo in the top photo. I’m really not sure I’d want to take something that size out there, but who’s going to stop them?
The RNLI had their hands full hauling grockles off the rocks near the beach that afternoon… 🙄

How about through insurance?

you should have to prove insurance prior to launch at a public or commercial slipway. If you’ve done the training, then your premium is low.

If you haven’t then the companies can charge heavily or refuse. Come the accident and you haven’t done the training, then you haven’t applied due care and you get hammered in court. This covers launch at a private slipway.

Not nice, but in a previous life I got totally fed up with battling with mindless morons on their jet skis. They were less than nice people and didn’t care who they put at risk. Elsewhere I’ve seen RIBs coming back from a late night Pi$$ up across the Solent totally unlit at high speed (I’d put money that there will be a few tonight outbound from Yarmouth and Cowes). These idiots need the book thrown at them before another tragedy occurs.

In this case the driver was (IMO) negligent by not attaching the kill cord prior to taking out others and with other water users present with tragic consequences.

To me, the wording seemed like it was very carefully composed so as not to name the driver. One assumes, it’ll all come out when the coroner does his thing as the surviving adult (wife) will be questioned, no? Anyway, a tragic accident. I couldn’t care less how rich or poor they were, a mother is left without a leg, husband and children and a child without a father and siblings. Goodness knows what their future holds.

Even sadder, that boat looks brand new (prop is mint along with rest of vessel); I suspect (bearing in mind the weather recently) that it was the first weekend of its use, maybe it’s maiden voyage. What a waste 🙁

As well as using the safety leash, I’d insist on seatbelts as well,

and what happens when the boat flips, or gets holed and sinks fast?

you should have to prove insurance prior to launch at a public or commercial slipway.

good idea – drive the idiots away from public places so there’s even less chance of the getting help