Tories looking after the rich, what a shocker.

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  • Tories looking after the rich, what a shocker.
  • Premier Icon kimbers
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    Anyone in my position but a decade younger would need their head examined if they didn’t consider moving somewhere more tax-friendly.

    so how come anyone works in the city at all?

    Premier Icon binners
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    Or all the rich people will end up in one place paying no tax while the vast majority are stuck.

    That place already exists. Its referred to as Chelsea and Knightsbridge

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
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    Shocker – thread on tax takes bi-partisan extremes.

    Osborne “should” make his decision on the simple question – is the 50p rate the best way to maximise tax revenues. Of course, not as easy a question as it seems. Isn’t there a report due in the next few days?

    CEPS analysis is ambiguous – this year 50p rate had bought in more tax revenue but not as much as expected, but in long run it will reduce revenue.

    Is today’s announcement a bluff or is a trade off with the Lib Dems with an asset/wealth based tax (harder to dodge but expensive and difficult to administer)? Could well be a bluff as the Tories have screwed Cleggie on most things so far.

    So if independent analysis shows that the 50p tax rate reduces the revenue tax for the government is that Osborne feeding his mates and the rich or is it prudent economics?

    Premier Icon aracer
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    let’s not forget thet the FPTP system could have allowed a Lib/Lab coalition in 2010

    Ah that old saw. Not true I’m afraid – a Lib/Lab coalition would have been a minority government, and unlikely to be able to achieve much.

    I see this coalition as a sign that the days of FPTP are numbered

    Strangely enough, the electorate appear to disagree with you ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Premier Icon MSP
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    One of the main problems with proving the higher/lower tax rate = higher/lower tax revenues is comparing like for like over a sustained period of time.

    The raising of the tax rate led to the capitalisation of assets and being declared as earning before the tax rate was introduced, and now the speculation that it will be reduced has lead to assets being held onto in the hope of a future reduction. Seeing that its only been in place for a short period of time, this will have a large impact on the figures.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
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    MSP – indeed it is a tricky subject but better to think about it than descend into petty party politics.

    I love the idea that this is all an Eton consipracy (please add St Pauls etc) and that none of these guys have ever had to work hard. All handed to them by “mummy and daddy”. How absurdly partonising and ignorant. Ok criticise people for lack of real-business experience etc, or for making bad decisions but stop being silly about education.

    No one gets into those sorts of schools without working hard. When they are there they work considerably longer hours than most (9:00pm finishes) and top universities do not accept candidates that dont work hard for exams or while they were there. The idea of upper-class or rich patronage is as outdated and absurd as flat caps and whippets. Funny (perhaps) but absurd.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    So all those against a 50% tax band.

    Are there no entrepreneurs in Germany? Sweden?, Holland?

    Have all their wealth creators left? Or is this just on huge bogus myth

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Teamhurtmore – absolutly true tho

    Cameron and his cronies inherited wealth. None of them have earned it. None of them have created anything

    big_n_daft
    Member

    I thought people who were potentially caught by the 50% rate just renegotiated their contract to put the affected cash in their pension or some other tax avoidance

    you can ask Dave Prentis for advice if you want http://order-order.com/2011/08/10/dave-prentis-is-a-tax-hypocrite/

    big_n_daft
    Member

    Cameron and his cronies inherited wealth. None of them have earned it. None of them have created anything

    a bit like the Miliband brothers then?

    Junkyard
    Member

    I love the idea that this is all an Eton consipracy (please add St Pauls etc) and that none of these guys have ever had to work hard. All handed to them by “mummy and daddy”. How absurdly partonising and ignorant. Ok criticise people for lack of real-business experience etc, or for making bad decisions but stop being silly about education.

    aye dave had to marry wisely athe heir tto the baronancy of westford has indeed worked hard all his life to inherit thi sform his father

    Ps the opposite is equally patronising everyone whjo is poor is poor because they have not worked hard and they are lazy etc

    Plenty of folk work thier arses off fo rth minimum wage rather thna for consultancy fees

    Your moral compasss will let you decide which group need the help of society and which needs the breaks..is it the rich ones or the poor ones you want to help?

    Big n daft you really are daft

    Born in London, Miliband is the younger son of Polish Jewish immigrants. His mother, Marion Kozak, a human rights campaigner and early CND member[2], survived the Holocaust thanks to being protected by Roman Catholic Poles.[3][4] His father Ralph Miliband was a Belgian-born Marxist who fled with his parents to England during World War II.[5][4] Due to his father’s employment as a teacher Miliband spent two spells living in Boston, Massachusetts one year when he was seven and one junior high school term when he was twelve.[6]

    Yes the similiarities between this and dave and Gideon is shocking

    Premier Icon Lifer
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    big_n_daft – Member

    Cameron and his cronies inherited wealth. None of them have earned it. None of them have created anything

    a bit like the Miliband brothers then?

    Has Ed called for the 50p tax rate to be scrapped?

    Premier Icon D0NK
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    Your moral compasss will let you decide which group need the help of society and which needs the breaks..is it the rich ones or the poor ones you want to help?

    quality postage

    and your keyboard even worked for that sentence, mostly

    allthepies
    Member

    I thought people who were potentially caught by the 50% rate just renegotiated their contract to put the affected cash in their pension or some other tax avoidance

    Or do a Red-Ken and channel it into a personal company and spread the moolah over multiple tax years so you don’t have to pay the top rate.

    big_n_daft
    Member

    what are Chuka Umunna’s thoughts on inherited wealth?

    big_n_daft
    Member

    Born in London, Miliband is the younger son of Polish Jewish immigrants. His mother, Marion Kozak, a human rights campaigner and early CND member[2], survived the Holocaust thanks to being protected by Roman Catholic Poles.[3][4] His father Ralph Miliband was a Belgian-born Marxist who fled with his parents to England during World War II.[5][4] Due to his father’s employment as a teacher Miliband spent two spells living in Boston, Massachusetts one year when he was seven and one junior high school term when he was twelve.[6]

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/09/ed-miliband-journalists-in-glass-houses

    feel free to comment on the inherited personnal wealth and the tax dodging

    grum
    Member

    I love the idea that this is all an Eton consipracy (please add St Pauls etc) and that none of these guys have ever had to work hard. All handed to them by “mummy and daddy”. How absurdly partonising and ignorant. Ok criticise people for lack of real-business experience etc, or for making bad decisions but stop being silly about education.

    What’s absurd is when rich people from privileged backgrounds go on and on about how important self reliance is, as if they had hauled themselves up by their bootstraps and that the opportunities they had are available to everyone. In fact it’s worse than absurd.

    Junkyard
    Member

    its alie they dont even believe …well maybee they do think they got their by hard work who knows ..they may be out of touch enough tot hink it but I assume they were not as stupid as think it

    feel free to comment on the inherited personnal wealth and the tax dodging your claim that this is the same as dave or gideon

    that seesm like they[parents and children] worked hard achieved things on merit then behaved legally to keep their wealth – the hiuse stuff all seemed to do with having children and need …are you priasing the imiigrants whp fled th eNazis for acquiring wealth by working hard or telling us this is a bad thing?

    from the article

    Despite its array of prices and dates, the story disclosed no wrongdoing. What it described was an individual example of a social fact: that the Miliband brothers are part of a class that has been lucky in all kinds of ways and clever enough in some. Lucky to have inherited property in a desirable area; lucky it became even more desirable after Jude Law and Jamie Oliver moved in; lucky to buy into a rising market; clever enough to have understood how inheritance tax works, though hardly especially clever because the personal finance pages of the papers that published the story give their readers the same advice most weeks (“How good tax planning can benefit your children”).

    I dont see how this compares with dave or gideon could you enlighten me?

    joeegg
    Member

    If the people affected by the 50% tax band are using tax avoidance schemes to pay less tax do we really think they will stop using those schemes just because the rate goes down to 40%.

    fuzzhead
    Member

    Surely this a case of not watching the right hand coz of what the left hand’s doing? i.e. we’ll be so glad that they don’t scrap the 50% tax rate that we won’t notice/mind the other policies that get introduced that benefit Dave/George’s old school chums…

    Berm Bandit
    Member

    Trickle down economics innit?

    nickf
    Member

    I thought people who were potentially caught by the 50% rate just renegotiated their contract to put the affected cash in their pension or some other tax avoidance

    Putting money into a pension is hardly tax avoidance, is it? At best it’s tax deferral; you don’t pay tax on it now, but you will do in later years. The basis for this is that you don’t have the use of it now – it isn’t income. When it gets converted to income, tax is paid.

    Now, tell me again: is this really tax avoidance?

    julianwilson
    Member

    Ah that old saw. Not true I’m afraid – a Lib/Lab coalition would have been a minority government, and unlikely to be able to achieve much.

    It is an old saw but it is also true, and although hugely unpopular I am sure, it could have happened. Maybe it was a slow news day or something, but I recall much being made of Cleg visting Brown to discuss possibility of a coalition as well as ( forget if it was before or after) Cameron. Minority governments in PR countries manage to govern and pass legislation too you know. A lib/lab coalition may have had an easier time of it than you’d expect for a minority government given that at the time their manifestoes and political outlooks were far closer to each other than they were to the Conservatives, and Clegg would arguably have had a far easier time convincing his MP’s to vote ‘with’ Labour than he does with the Conservatives. Unlike many other PR countries, we have parties that often stay out of debates that don’t concern them, obvious example being the SNP and the Health and Social Care Bill: a minority coalition government could have had a far easier time enacting this bill than they would something euqally controversial that affected Scotland and NI too.

    Yes all that wierness was and theoretically is possible with our sacred and wonderful FPTP system too, except it’s a bit more of a lucky dip for the individual voter, particularly those in safe constituencies.

    Strangely enough, the electorate appear to disagree with you.

    I believe a more correct term than ‘electorate’ would be ‘franchise’. Our franchise happened to be those on the electoral roll, (not always the case in many countries) but it would be foolish to confuse the opinion of a referendum with the opinion of those who normally go out and vote. (Just as under FPTP it is foolish to confuse the opinion of everyone over 18, or even just everyone that casts a tactical vote under FPTP with the actual numbers of who voted for whom.)

    People I know who usually vote in elections did not all bother with the referendum, (of course turnout is greater in general and by-elections than it is in local council or euro ones), and people I know who don’t bother voting in elections (because ours is a wonderfully safe seat, they say ‘what’s the point?’) did get out of the house and vote in the referendum.

    Notwithstanding the apparent truculency (is that really a word?) of some lib Lib Dem back benchers who ‘behaved’ before the AV referendum, it would be interesting to see after a further year of thinly-veiled conflict within the coalition, whether anyone feels differently about the merits of how the present government came into being, and whether it’s worth again considering electoral reform any time soon.

    [afterthought- am I doing my bit for growth in the econmomy by keeping aracer away from his real work? ๐Ÿ˜‰ ]

    Premier Icon MSP
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    Now, tell me again: is this really tax avoidance?

    Well if done so that you don’t pay tax at current levels, and are promised that when you do pay tax it will be at a lower level then yes.

    Premier Icon Drac
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    Are there no entrepreneurs in Germany? Sweden?, Holland?

    I think they have a spaceship off planet where they look down on the rest of us doing the jobs they so kindly provide.

    nickf
    Member

    Well if done so that you don’t pay tax at current levels, and are promised that when you do pay tax it will be at a lower level then yes.

    There are no promises, are there? Certainly no guarantees.

    Premier Icon ononeorange
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    So long as they don’t put the tax levy on Mint Sauce cufflinks.

    allthepies
    Member

    At best it’s tax deferral; you don’t pay tax on it now, but you will do in later years

    Most probably at a lower rate. Yes, it’s tax avoidance which is of course perfectly legal.

    Premier Icon binners
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    Can I open up a small subsidiary of myself in Dublin? For tax purposes? Would that be legal?

    Premier Icon aracer
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    Minority governments in PR countries manage to govern and pass legislation too you know.

    Maybe, but as you keep pointing out, things are different here. I’m not sure a minority government would have such an easy time of it here, especially not a minority coalition with such a slim majority over the likely opposition that they’d be 3 line whips every day in order to get anything at all through.

    Though let’s come back to

    I didn’t explain myself very well then.

    No you didn’t – maybe you could just let me know which bit I’ve got wrong – is it that you’re not actually in favour of PR, or that you don’t actually disapprove of the way coalition politics works in practice?

    am I doing my bit for growth in the econmomy by keeping aracer away from his real work?

    What do you think my real work is, and why would that have an impact on growth in the economy? ๐Ÿ˜•

    julianwilson
    Member

    binners – Member

    Can I open up a small subsidiary of myself in Dublin? For tax purposes? Would that be legal?

    I was thinking about whether I could register my ward as a charity, myself as a (non-medical)consultant-cum-contractor-cum-benefactor and then somehow ‘gift-aid’ my work there to get all my income tax back. Or something. Still sounds less far-fetched and complicated than some of the actually-not-illegal stuff you read about.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    I thought people who were potentially caught by the 50% rate just renegotiated their contract to put the affected cash in their pension or some other tax avoidance

    Can I just check those people complaining about perfectly legal tax avoidance – there isn’t any chance you’ve ever been involved in or recommended on here illegal evasion of import duty? I always get the feeling that’s seen as being far more acceptable round here…

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Aracer – salmond ran a minority government in Scotland for 4 years which worked just fine.

    PJM1974
    Member

    Nah…keep the 50% band. It only applies to folk who earn more than ยฃ150K per annum anyway. Those entrepreneurs who invest in their own companies and or directors have their dividends taxed differently.

    While I’m at it, renationalise the railways and leave the NHS alone.

    None of that is going to happen though.

    julianwilson
    Member

    Aracer, before you joined the thread someone postulated the number of people that voted Conservative in May 2010 was a represetation of the number of people who wanted a Conservative government.

    I posted to the effect that it wasn’t really as clear cut as all that and that technically no one really ‘won’ the 2010 election. (in the sense that we have come to expect that although in many constituencies we vote ‘against’ parties, FTPT delivers us clear one-party majorities without needing to leapfrog the next party along and join in coalition with one whose political manifesto was in many ways opposite to one’s own.)

    We don’t know how many of those that felt it was worth voting (and voted conservative) just didn’t want a Labour government, and how many more or less would have voted conservative or even voted at all if they weren’t in safe or marginal constituency, or if Labour hadn’t been quite as unpopular as they were at the time. Quite a lot of people voted Labour, SNP, Lib Dem and so on because they didn’t want a conservative government, same long sentence above goes for them.

    What is clear and what I also pointed out was that despite having a Liberal deputy PM and all the smiles and handshakes, it is suprising how much has been done so soon after the election that was not in either parties manifesto, when no one really knows how many people actually wanted the things that even were in their manifestoes. The thing with coalitions in europe is that usually the output of a coalition is a compromise between the outlooks of the parties involved in that coalition. With the exception of the AV referendum, the output of the current government is more conservative than either of their electoral manifestos, rather than being moderated by their being in coalition with a party from the other side of the political spectrum.

    Aracer, when you joined the thread, did you object to the ‘no one really won the 2010 election’ bit, or the idea that the Conservatives should wind their necks in a bit and be a bit respectful of how they got in this time?

    I resent the idea that this coalition was a ‘victory’ of any sort, when it has failed to act like one and despite comprehensively backing FPTP as a fine upstanding and representative way of choosing a government, seems now in the process of attempting to change constituency boundaries so that this whole silly coalition thing doesn’t happen again and the Conservatives get a proper majority next time.

    No you didn’t – maybe you could just let me know which bit I’ve got wrong – is it that you’re not actually in favour of PR, or that you don’t actually disapprove of the way coalition politics works in practice?

    I wrote earlier:

    I don’t like the way the Conservatives overwhelmingly opposed AV and then a year later set about boundary reforms, despite having got into government … without a parliamentary majority. A more cycnical person would wonder if they have their foot jammed in the door and are trying all they can to make sure they get all the way in next time. The amount of changes instigated out so soon after the election that was in neither party’s electoral manifestoes grates a little bit too.

    I suppose all that means I like coalitions if they behave as they should, and I don’t see the point of FPTP if as well as muddying the waters of the wishes of the electorate, it also fails in it’s supposed advantage of producing single party governments. If we are going to have coalitions, at least let’s make them behave properly, and be more representative of what people actually want rather than tactically voted (or didn’t bother voting).

    What do you think my real work is, and why would that have an impact on growth in the economy?

    As for the last comment, I was just trying to inject a little bit of humour back in. Sorry. ๐Ÿ™ I think I will just go and make some lame beard jokes on the Rowan Williams thread now. ๐Ÿ™

    enfht
    Member

    Should forum moderators post politically biased opinions?

    Is STW officially left-wing?

    allthepies
    Member

    Aracer, before you joined the thread someone postulated the number of people that voted Conservative in May 2010 was a represetation of the number of people who wanted a Conservative government.

    I posted to the effect that it wasn’t really as clear cut as all that

    So those Tory voters didn’t want a Conservative government ? Well, I’m shocked ๐Ÿ™‚

    Premier Icon binners
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    Is STW officially left-wing?

    I don’t think you need be some pinko commy to recognise these present shower as the bunch of ****s that they so clearly are

    enfht
    Member

    I wouldnt go so far as to call lefties commies…maybe the marxists like Ernesto but not your typical lefties, surely?

    julianwilson
    Member

    So those Tory voters didn’t want a Conservative government ? Well, I’m shocked

    Read the post.

    Pretty certain most of them definitely didn’t want a Labour government though.

    I voted Lib Dem because I wanted a Labour government, not a Lib Dem one. Actually I really did want a lib dem one but would settle for a labour one rather than a conservative one. (Sounds like the AV chocloate bar order doesn’t it?) So I wanted a labour government beacuse they weren’t conservative not because I really wanted one, but then voted lib dem anyway because they has slightly less of a snowball’s chance of toppling the incumbent conservative MP. FPTP rocks! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Currently unless you are happy with and want to carry on with our incumbent MP, there is actually little point voting at all in my uber-safe Conservative constituency, let alone voting Labour (far fewer votes than Lib dem in last few elections) (perhaps that is why our Cons MP has broken rank and spoken out against the boundary changes, because voting patterns of the wards which will join his constituenct mean he will have to work a lot harder for his seat next time round).

    So the numbers really are to a large extent just numbers.

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