They could do a **** sight better job of dealing with the Tories if likes of your mate stopped giving them reasons to be in division.

Oh yeah, it’s definitely Watson stopping Corbyn from being on r4 at 8:10 am. Do leave off.

HEs a trouble maker 😁

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Watson_(Labour_politician)

Tom Watson will not be the next leader of the labour party.

Correct:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50325666

More moderates and centrists leaving front line politics.

More moderates and centrists leaving front line politics.

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

There is no place for centrists in current British politics.

We have three right of centre parties in the Brexit Party, Tories and Lib Dems. Centrists are incapable of challenging such a shift to the right without travelling that way themselves (as the Lib Dems have done).

There is no place for centrists in current British politics.

Then FPTP needs to go, because everyone should be able to expect to be represented in our parliament. Or are you suggesting their are no voters other than right wing and left wing ones?

Then FPTP needs to go, because everyone should be able to expect to be represented in our parliament. Or are you suggesting their are no voters other than right wing and left wing ones?

Straight up commie/fascist play, claim that the center ground is obsolete or no longer existent and then try to encourage a big show down between two diametrically opposed forces that cannot co-exist.

Then FPTP needs to go

Yes but that doesnt seem relevant to the point they look to be making.
Which was more “centrists” currently seem to have a tendency to drift rightwards. It is a problem in the triangulation approach used by “centrists”. Taking some of your opponents policies works okay in the first election but second one they have two options.
Either they can try the same trick back on you or they can try and separate themselves from you again by moving further to your side. If the latter then you either, effectively, abandon triangulation or once again choose some more policies to nick. Suddenly you have shifted the centre ground to their side.
One of the main problems with this triangulation model is you run a real risk of failing to represent your traditional voters and overemphasising the importance of the “centrists” since those are the swing voters. Then those traditional voters start looking for a change, any change.
So there should be a distinct centrist party rather than coopting the traditional left/right wing parties but currently that doesnt seem to be on offer. The answer though is to provide that and not take over one of the others.

dissonance

Subscriber

Yes but that doesnt seem relevant to the point they look to be making. Which was more “centrists” currently seem to have a tendency to drift rightwards.

I’m not sure that’s completely true tbh. I think that “centrists” in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place. Theresa May’s government was described as centrist ffs.

The trick is to convince everyone else that the centre is where you already are, rather than actually moving. Ed Miliband took one of the more genuinely centrist positions we’ve seen in UK elections for years and still got called “Red Ed” and buried under “Labour will give all your money away”. And nobody knew what he actually wanted or stood for, by the end even he wasn’t sure, because he’d chased the moving target of “the centre” while David Cameron just stayed exactly where he wanted to be and said “it’s over here!”

I’m not sure that’s completely true tbh. I think that “centrists” in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place. Theresa May’s government was described as centrist ffs.

It is of course, hard to be smack in the center – who described may as centrist though? She wasn’t. The Lib Dems have a claim, even if it is to the right of it under Swinson.

If the center ground cannot find it’s footing again though, we are **** – we’ll end up in a ideologically reactionary spiral and the 2016 referendum will be judged by history as a quiet opening ranging shot followed by a series of increasingly violent broadside salvos.

…claim that the center ground is obsolete or no longer existent…

So, who has the centre ground at the moment? Oh, and if you mention Lib Dems that is a hard fail.

The lack of truly centrist parties, in England at least, is pretty self-evident.

So, who has the centre ground at the moment? Oh, and if you mention Lib Dems that is a hard fail.

The lack of truly centrist parties, in England at least, is pretty self-evident.

It’s fairly hard to find yourself right in the centre, but yes the lib dems are right of centre right now.

You rightly point out that there are a lack of centrists in parliament, that is a huge problem though as polarised parties feed off of each other leading to a reactionary descent into extremism, the more radical one side gets – so the other does in response.

There is no place for centrists in current British politics

I agree (for me) and I said a few months ago they were going to mostly fizzle away.

Voters are moving to more extremes to correct or support their political identity. Where did you think the Brexit came from?

‘Extreme’ perhaps not the perfect word as I believe Labours 2017 manifesto is not really an extreme but it has to correct Tory damage so therby swings more to the left.

Trouble is Centrists tend to be shouty as they’re clinging to the bygone Blair era and might lose out a bit in their quest for bigger houses, nicer cars and cozy fringe Neolib benefits.

They will be back though – when the Political landscape swings in the opposite direction.

(Libdumbs aren’t Centrists in my opinion – they are too market-orientated but are selling it as Centrism. There is no feel good factor with them.)

Centrism a la Blair is done for the time being in any substantial way. Not sure what Jonathan Freedland will do …

Labour is a little left of centre, lib dems a little right of centre. Tories are hard right wing. SNP are a little left of centre.

UK politics have moved one heck of a long way to the right to the point that the political centre of the UK is way to the right of the real political centre.

Look at the way corbyn is vilified for being some sort of hard leftie when labour does not have a single policy that is not mainstream social democratic as seen thru the mirror of european politics. Nothing that labour has as a policy would raise an eyebrow in most of Europe – indeed I had a series of political discussions with mainland europeans who were all astonished at the way Corbyn was portrayed in the media and they couldn’t understand why he was attacked as he is because in their view he was nothing remarkable and came over very well on TV

I think that “centrists” in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place.

True. I was trying to keep it more generalised and within that I think there is still a tendency to drift to one side or another once the triangulation policy has been adapted.
For the UK the centrists do seem to have a definite leaning. I am not sure how much it is driven by the need to kiss the hard right presses arse?
Ed Miliband is interesting. Definitely with left wing tendencies and towards the end of the campaign did try to show them but too little to late.

There also needs to be a recognisation that these “centrists” are often just as ideological driven as anyone else. Its just either they dont recognise it or dont admit to it.
Its reflected in comments like “ideologically reactionary spiral ” which seems determined to ignore the fact that is precisely what we got from the “centrists” in the UK. The difference being the centrists seem to work on taking over all major parties and so removing choice that way.

For the UK the centrists do seem to have a definite leaning. I am not sure how much it is driven by the need to kiss the hard right presses arse?

Blair did that and it worked well for him for a number of years so there is a need to do it.

Blair did that and it worked well for him for a number of years so there is a need to do it.

Its debatable whether it was needed in 97 (one fun what if is what if Smith hadnt had a heart attack). It also needs the emphasis on “well for him” as opposed to well overall. All those pissed off people who voted out. Wonder what helped contribute to the impression they have about politicians all being the same.

The influence of the right wing press is still there but not as strong as it was back in the 90s due to the rise in new media

the real power tho in the right wing press is not direct. Its that they set the agenda for the BBC. something picked up in the tory press is always reported on the BBC and every day those in charge of the BBC look at the tory press to decide what goes on the news bulletins.

I thought the BBC was the Tory press these days e.g. I’ve lost count of the number of times a news reporter has slipped in ‘the overwhelming majority is in favour of Brexit’ in an interview etc…

As for Tom Watson, great shame, one of the few ‘normal’ people left in the Labour cabinet; not that he had that much influence.

There also needs to be a recognisation that these “centrists” are often just as ideological driven as anyone else. Its just either they dont recognise it or dont admit to it.
Its reflected in comments like “ideologically reactionary spiral ” which seems determined to ignore the fact that is precisely what we got from the “centrists” in the UK. The difference being the centrists seem to work on taking over all major parties and so removing choice that way.

This!

The Neo-Liberals who dominated the ‘centre’ in the form of Blarites and previous Lib Dems are/were as much ideologically driven and reactionary as any on the left or right.

The issue is that when the political wind started to blow away from them they attempted (in the case of those billeting in the Labour Party) to damage the party from within, despite the change being democratically driven by the rank-and-file membership.

See, this is my point… because of FPTP, we mostly have a two party system, and in most areas of the UK everyone has to look to one of those parties to represent them. If neither party can have room for people who aren’t “left” or “right” enough to serve in them, then who will represent the voters who do not want or are not interested in the UK swinging much further “right” or “left”? If the two main parties are happy to narrow their focus, then they need to also have the courage to dismantle the FPTP system so that people can chose their representation based on what they want for the UK, not leave them stuck with having to vote against what they can stand to put up with least.

If the two main parties are happy to narrow their focus

I would say that gets it badly wrong. They have broadened their focus from a very narrow group of voters to taking all their voters into account.
This is obviously problematic from centrists since after being treated as all important for many years they are now being treated more equally. Unfortunately some dont seem to be able to adapt to this.
In theory there is the representative party although under the orange book lot sadly they have been dragged rightwards.
Its not just the centrists though. What about green party members or hard left people who arent represented? I would say hard right as well but Johnson currently has that covered.
What is so special about the centrists that they deserve this special treatment?

Dont get me wrong I would prefer a PR system but the complaints about the centrists not getting enough attention strikes me as wrong and shows a sense of entitlement which really doesnt help.

a sense of entitlement

Yes, I think everyone should feel entitled to be represented in our parliament. If we stick with a voting system designed for a two party system, those parties should, between them, seek to represent everyone. If they decide to just represent their core left and core right voters, safe in the knowledge that FPTP will stop other voters abandoning them for fear of the other big party benefitting, then our democratic system is denying representation to a huge chunk of the population.

Dawn Butler to stand as candidate for deputy leader – god help us; she is utterly useless and a thoroughly incompetent interviewee.

Anyone listen to radio 4 this morning it had Ian Austin on it telling people to vote for boris…..

I don’t do discussing politics but it was such an impassioned speech it was quite interesting

Labour is a little left of centre, lib dems a little right of centre. Tories are hard right wing. SNP are a little left of centre.

I don’t really accept the whole left/right thing at all…

…but if we do play along with it for a moment how the hell are the SNP “a little left of centre” on a scale where Labour is currently ‘a little left of centre’??? The SNP are about as fiscally responsible as you can get and as far as I can tell haven’t nationalised anything, they haven’t redistributed anything and their tax regime is near identical to the rest of the Uk.

They froze council tax for everyone, cut council service budgets in real terms and handed out middle-class perks like free university education and free prescriptions at the expense of the NHS and college places.

I’d be delighted if the SNP were in government in the UK right now and for the next five years, and I’m a raving neo-liberal.

Well according to the rightwing press the SNP are raving lefties. They did use the limited tax powers thay have to be redistributive. Earn less than the average wage you pay less tax than in England. Earn more an you pay more. They also spent a lot of money on trying to mitigate many of the UK wide benefit cuts, we have no private provision in Schools or the NHS bar contracts that were in place before they came to power. they bought the various toll bridges ( natiuonalisation) and made them free Nationalised a failing private hospital and there are plenty of other examples of the sort of lefty policies that you would hate if Corbyn made them. If they had the power they would nationalise a lot more of the things the tories sold off like electricity and water

Actually there is hardly a fag paper between their policies and labours in most areas. the things they haven’t done is because holyrood does not have the power.

And of course add to that the work they are doing on benefits. Disability benefit assessments are being brought back in house and they are using the limited powers they have in benefits to redistribute as well

thinking about it the hospital and the bridges may be pre SNP Cannot remember