when complex issues are being debated, try to keep up. I know it’s hard when we end up discussing multiple variables but it’s not impossible to delineate between these threads

How exactly is patronising me, for your basic error, helping here?
You were challenged on a point, you brought up irrelevant info and then said you did not mean to do the thing you just did and , when challenged on this claim, then said I had failed to understand things
[politely] We all make mistakes, its not a sign of weakness to admit it. However its a sign of insecurity to do this. Lying is even worse than an error. [/politely]

I’ve little opinion on the subject beyond “good luck to them,” but I have to say that I think trailwagger is being unfairly lambasted here.  The OP was (to my mind) clearly intended to start an interesting discussion rather than being borne from prejudice.  I’ve been on the receiving end of … at least one of the usual suspects’ inferences before and no matter how much you re-explain yourself it’s like having a discussion with a Nori brick.

Perhaps more debatable is the issue some have with surrogacy.  So I’m going to throw in a hand grenade.  Say the surrogate mother is a rape victim.  She doesn’t want to keep the child because of the horrible memories, but can’t bring herself to abort either.  She has friends, a nice couple of boys full of love who would happily raise the child as their own.  Where are we now?

This thread is morphing into Mumsnet.

More important than that is I’ve run out of biscuits – again – FFS.

Where are we now?

No abortion but cool with the gays is it the republic of ireland ?

Cougar, try finding out what surrogacy is about, before throwing an irrelevant “grenade”.

Where are we now?

For me this isnt surrogacy its adoption.

Where are we now?

dictionary corner ?

Say the surrogate mother is a rape victim. She doesn’t want to keep the child because of the horrible memories, but can’t bring herself to abort either.

To me that is straight forward adoption. Surrogacy is planned and contracts etc agreed up front.

so it’s just your opinion then ?

Good lord no, the data on this pretty well established, at least thus far. Children living with both biological parents, on average do better than those only living with one. But the data also shows that parental conflict is also a major contributing factor so in many instances, the differences between those doing badly in a single parent household and those doing badly in a two parent household is pretty marginal. To put it another way, having both biological parents it’s no guarantee of a childs health and well being.

You seem to have misunderstood my question.

I was asking why (as you claimed) it was important to have maternal and paternal roles represented in a parenting couple….

But it is still important, wherever possible, to have both the paternal/masculine and maternal/feminine roles equally represented.

youve not demonstrated anything so far that shows this is anything other than simply your opinion.

Cougar, try finding out what surrogacy is about, before throwing an irrelevant “grenade”.

Fair point.  I didn’t think that through.  Sorry.

You seem to have misunderstood my question.

I was asking why (as you claimed) it was important to have maternal and paternal roles represented in a parenting couple….

Yes I see there was some confusion and there are multiple threads that are intertwined here but I see that there was a misunderstanding somewhere.

So, to be clear, I’ll deal with the issue of two versus one first.

The data shows us very clearly that kids do better when both mum and dad are fully involved in bringing up a child. It doesn’t apply in all situations and the instance of parental conflict is the key variable that denudes the protection that both parents being around provides for a child’s well being.

This data is based on family units where (mum and dad) are present and contrasted against (just mum) or, more rarely, (just dad) – the parenthesis represents the set being examined.

There have also been studies done that also compare both those sets to (mum + step dad).

The data shows that where mum and dad or mum and step dad are present, kids do far better, boys especially. This is significant since we know that we have a big problem with boys under performing at schools, white working class boys especially. We desperately need policy to address this problem but that is a separate issue.

What hasn’t been extensively controlled for, are other combinations where you have two maternal or two paternal roles exclusively. I understand that the initial data suggests that all other factors being equal, these family units seem to do as well as those with mum and dad but there isn’t enough data to draw a valid conclusion, at least not since I last looked at this issue which was several years ago.

So we can safely conclude that two are better than one. Which brings us on to the second issue of having maternal and paternal roles represented.

This is less about what the data tells us and more about how we as a society feel about it. The issue here is both ‘my opinion’ and also ‘society’s opinion’ since we have as a society decided that a more equal representation of gender roles in key institutions of sociiety is important and that any policy or natrual phenomenon that ends up marginalising one gender in those roles is not good.

If we are going to draw this conclusion and take steps to ensure that, as far as possible, we do have equal representation, then it stands to reason that we should look at all aspects of society. So far we have made significant progress in the workplace, politics and to a lesser degree religion but we have made zero progress with family.

If you agree that equality of representation is important (as I am sure you do), then one of the things we can do is say that whatever structure the main family unit is going to take, as far as possible, we should enable and promote the involvement of both the maternal and paternal roles in parenting.

That doesn’t have to mean that only ‘mums and dads’ should be the main family unit; other structures could (and most likely will) work just as well, for example two paternal/maternal roles in the main unit with opposite biological gender role as a third party.

There will be exceptions to this of course, such as adoption by a same sex couple where the process specifically has to exclude one of those role by nature of the circumstance.

So to summarise, my point about having both roles represented is based on the notion that equality of representation is important in society.

Of course I am more than happy for you to challenge that notion. There may well be cogent arguments to say that equality of representation isn’t that important at least not empirically speaking and that it’s just something we decide on because it’s politically expedient. But I’m not sure you’re ready to make that argument?

HINT

This is less about what the data tells us and more about how we as a society feel about it. The issue here is both ‘my opinion’ and also ‘society’s opinion’ since we have as a society decided that a more equal representation of gender roles in key institutions of sociiety is important and that any policy or natrual phenomenon that ends up marginalising one gender in those roles is not good.

This is where you are going badly wrong.  You have taken your opirion to be society’s opinion and incorrectly associated gender equality to this discussion.

At the risk of getting attacked once more, I do have this to add.

I was discussing it with the wife last night (who has a degree in child development), and her view is that single sex parents are fine and children do just as well in this type of environment, but, they do need role models of the opposite sex. So in the case of two paternal parents, they need close relationships with Aunts or Grandmothers for example.

I agree with kerley. Taking a study and trying to extrapolate the findings to a broadly similar scenario is one thing.

Taking a supposed societal opinion on gender equality and applying it to this scenario is completely different and pure supposition. If you want to state it as your opinion then fine, but don’t pretend that it has any weight beyond that

I agree with kerley. Taking a study and trying to extrapolate the findings to a broadly similar scenario is one thing.

I categorically didn’t do that.

You have taken your opirion to be society’s opinion and incorrectly associated gender equality to this discussion.

No that’s not what I did. You cannot either correctly or incorrectly do anything of the sort since these issues are not absolute. There is no right or wrong. You might not agree with what I did and that’s ok.

Taking a supposed societal opinion on gender equality and applying it to this scenario is completely different and pure supposition.

Yes it is. I made that very clear.

So then Kerley and Jonnyboi, are you both saying that you don’t think equality of representation in gender roles is an important thing in an absolute sense?

By that I mean, do you agree that there are certain places and situations where it’s OK for one gender to be less equally represented without that being a problem?

And if that is what you’re saying, where else other than family might that imbalance be OK?

I think you are probably right to be honest. Since this issue is not an absolute I think probably we should dismiss the issue of equality of representation as an absolute objective.

they need close relationships with Aunts or Grandmothers for example.

I think the term you were looking for was probably more along the lines of  ‘they may benefit from close relationships with Aunts or Grandmothers’ wasn’t it.

Yes I see there was some confusion and there are multiple threads that are intertwined here but I see that there was a misunderstanding somewhere.

Nobody else seems confused apart from you to be honest. You just stated an opinion, then backed it up with information from an irrelevant study, which didn’t back up your opinion at all

this is what I was (always) talking about  …

Gender has no bearing on good parenting by the way.

No quite right, it doesn’t. But it is still important, wherever possible, to have both the paternal/masculine and maternal/feminine roles equally represented.

And as far as I can see, that is simply your opinion

it certainly isn’t a “general concencus” as you seem to be suggesting

and you’ve so far, only quoted from studies that disagree with you. 😳

So, to be clear, I’ll deal with the issue of two versus one first.

Why?

This is an issue that only you seem to want to discuss, it is not relevant to single sex couples being parents, and was not part of the discussion at all until you started quoting studies about it.

white working class boys especially.

Why have you now brought race into it? Shall I assume you did not mean to do that as well ?
Black working class kids have under performed white working class kids since forever – though concerted effort has reduced this considerably . I dont understand how you “research” something and miss the most obvious conclusion.

Seriously how have you made such a basic error ? its almost as if you have tried to force your agenda onto the research yet again and misrepresent 🙄

Cougar: you’re rape example isn’t surrogacy it’s giving the child up for adoption. Surrogacy involves a level of forethought, planning and potentially genetic material from the intended parents. Also although there can be unanticipated complications along the way everyone involved goes into the process willingly and knowing what’s expected of them.

Fair point.  I didn’t think that through.  Sorry.

Think you missed this post @muppetwrangler

You’re right I did miss that post, viewing on my phone and have a tendency to skip over things. Apologies to Cougar

Geetee, can you clarify what you mean about equal representation of gender roles? Start with how many there are, if they can be counted.

Oh an do show us your website. I would respond to you original reply, but it seems a bit mixed up

This thread has gone all heavy,very little cut and paste quotes from obscure web sites to back up various ideas to propagate on the thread. No capitalisation, and little trolling .

Seems as if a bloke who writes crap for a daily newspaper has caused a stir and a lot of advertisers are withdrawing their advertising in the next few days or immediately, because of the stuff he has written about

Popbitch readers will have seen a more light-hearted (and possibly libelous) slant on this today.

Geetee, can you clarify what you mean about equal representation of gender roles?

Men and women regarded and represented fairly and equally with regard to the roles they play in society, culture and work.

You can find my website quite easily if you do a search.

I’m on spotify just now and getting mixed up listening to Tom Paley getting mixed up with this thread and thought id add to it. So many musicians to listen to

Men and women regarded and represented fairly and equally with regard to the roles they play in society, culture and work.

And what does this have to do with Tom Daley and his partner bringing up a child ?

An honest question, as earlier you tried to make it sound like it was relevant, but so far, I still don’t know how or why you think it is.

And what does this have to do with Tom Daley and his partner bringing up a child ?

An honest question, as earlier you tried to make it sound like it was relevant, but so far, I still don’t know how or why you think it is.

Well less to do with them specifically and more to do with what the original OP was trying to debate, which is, how do we feel about surrogacy and what are those feelings based on. This might or might not apply to Daley and his husband since we don’t know what their intention is, though I understand they have confirmed they have gone for surrogacy.

My point is that I feel strongly that as a society, we should regard the gender roles played by mothers and fathers as equally important and equally demanding of representation. That’s not always possible for reasons beyond anyone’s control but there are situaitons where it’s contrived deliberately from the outset and I am deeply uncomfortable about that, about a situation where a child is brought into the world in a way that specifically engineers one of the biological parents out of the equation. That to me feels morally wrong.

But a situation where the surrogate mother is going to be actively involved with two gay dads in the child’s life, or a sperm donnor dad similarly involved with a lesbian couple, well that to me seems like a wonderful idea. I also think that allowing same sex couples to adopt is also a joy and of course a single parent in the right circumstances.

As always with these things, it’s the message we send out about the importance of these roles that is rmore relevant here than the specific instances.

My point is that I feel strongly that as a society, we should regard the gender roles played by mothers and fathers as equally important and equally demanding of representation.

So, just to clarify for me, from this and your earlier response, you only recognise 2 gender identities?

That is an improvement as he used to just recognise the male gender

So, just to clarify for me, from this and your earlier response, you only recognise 2 gender identities?

Ah I see what you mean, sorry I hadn’t twigged that’s what you were asking.

I recognise and respect that a very small number of people express something other than a binary presentation of gender. I don’t know if this is biologically absolute, i.e. that genetically speaking there does exist a ‘third gender’ or if it’s more the product of the individual’s cognitive experience of their biology but I don’t think that matters since it’s the person’s exerience that we should respect (to a degree of course; there always exists the possiblity that the person’s experience of themselves puts them within the boundaries of the DSM. You can’t just unilaterally decide you’re a butterfly and it be so).

But then I’m not sure what relevance non-binary gender has in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society? I guess you could start argue that we should stop worrying about gender altogether and as a society ignore it as irrelevant. That would be quite a progressive outcome that we shoiuld probably aim for but I think we’re a long way off.

But then I’m not sure what relevance non-binary gender has in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society? I guess you could start argue that we should stop worrying about gender altogether and as a society ignore it as irrelevant.

The issue us if you see gender as binary, then you can see male and female behaviour (no matter the sex of the person). The idea of ‘things girls do’ or ‘things boys do’ really seems quite dated nowadays.
If, in fact you see gender as a diversity of identities, without polarisation, so not even a spectrum. Then the idea of equal representation is meaningless. It’s like asking for equal representation if personality. Gender is not a simple unitary concept. And it is not just a very small number of people who see it that way. Once you recognise gender for what it is, the idea of maternal or paternal roles become meaningless. The way in which you are a ‘man’ to your kids might be very different to the way in which I am a ‘man’ to my kids and there might be huge overlaps between those behaviours and the behaviours of their mothers, your ‘male/female roles’ might be orthogonal to mine. It’s just people.

 a child is brought into the world in a way that specifically engineers one of the biological parents out of the equation.

In the UK, a surrogate mother is always treated as the legal mother of the child, also she has the right (regardless of any any contracts, which aren’t recognised) to keep the child regardless of her biological relationship to the child.

…..in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society?

just so you know.

That isn’t what we were actually debating until you turned up.

The issue us if you see gender as binary, then you can see male and female behaviour (no matter the sex of the person). The idea of ‘things girls do’ or ‘things boys do’ really seems quite dated nowadays.
If, in fact you see gender as a diversity of identities, without polarisation, so not even a spectrum. Then the idea of equal representation is meaningless. It’s like asking for equal representation if personality. Gender is not a simple unitary concept. And it is not just a very small number of people who see it that way. Once you recognise gender for what it is, the idea of maternal or paternal roles become meaningless. The way in which you are a ‘man’ to your kids might be very different to the way in which I am a ‘man’ to my kids and there might be huge overlaps between those behaviours and the behaviours of their mothers, your ‘male/female roles’ might be orthogonal to mine. It’s just people.

This is really well put and I actually find myself agreeing with what you’ve said. As long as we have equality of opportunity we shouldn’t worry about equality of outcome and trying to engineer a situation where all genders are represented equally in all aspects of society, work or culture is a nonsense.

That isn’t what we were actually debating until you turned up.

Yes it was. Read above. It’s all connected.

trying to engineer a situation where all genders are represented equally in all aspects of society, work or culture is a nonsense.

true, but not so with sexes

I struggle with long sentences.

Have any of you, amongst all the hyperbole, mentioned that so long as a child receives love and meaningful attention from their ‘parents’, be they biological or otherwise, then there is every chance they will grow with a fully developed emotional intelligence?

A simple yes or no will suffice, thank you.

A lot of people have said that and only people with their own agenda seem to be making a’debate’ of anything

Have any of you, amongst all the hyperbole, mentioned that so long as a child receives love and meaningful attention from their ‘parents’, be they biological or otherwise, then there is every chance they will grow with a fully developed emotional intelligence?

I think we have, unfortunately, chance is all there is and their circumstances prior to that love and attention have a massive impact on those chances.