I’m not interested in enforcing helmet use but…

If I know I am going to be engaged in an activity already anyway… I could be wearing a device that most likely would add protection and not add risk. The device is comfortable and doesn’t impinge.

Why wouldn’t I?

Makes me laugh when people post pics of wearing protection equipment in cars!

What do you think all those airbags are for??

They are precisely designed to stop hard points hitting your head (especially in a side impact) and most people who buy a modern car want (and get) airbags, so you already DO (in effect) wear your helmet in your car, it’s just that it is integrated in the car rather than being put on your head……….

So there are no more head injuries in cars?

By extension should people who drive cars manufactured before the mid nineties wear helmets?

My kids don’t get airbags in the back, should they be wearing helmets?

My kids don’t get airbags in the back, should they be wearing helmets

Rear airbags. The first thing I checked was in all of my most recent cars or added as an extra.

Not getting at you specifically (because we all do this) but

To me that seems WILDLY unlikely…I haven’t read the science though

This is the problem. You’ve just taken a cogent and accurate argument and dismissed it from an admitted position of ignorance, just because you don’t “feel” it’s right.

When it comes to bike helmets (and lots of other issues) People react with emotion and anecdote, rather than facts and logic, and call it “common sense”.

Anyone who doesn’t “believe in helmets” should go outside and bang their head against the ground repeatedly. If they’re still able to, try it again with a helmet on and see which hurts the most.

I never used to bother on the road as I thought I was taking less risks than mtb but after being hit by seemingly blind drivers I’d say there’s definitely more risk there. And the speeds are higher. Mud is softer than concrete as well.

You’ve just taken a cogent and accurate argument and dismissed it from an admitted position of ignorance

I actually haven’t. I’ve expressed scepticism – which is quite a different thing to dismissing something. And I don’t know how accurate the argument is because I haven’t assessed the science. Don’t assume that because scientists say it it’s accurate.

For example – across a population and across all cycling activities, it might be that people take more risks when they are wearing helmets. However, that doesn’t necessarily apply to any particular individual, does it?

If it is possible to wear a helmet and still remain equally risk averse, then surely a helmet is an advantage? Bez’s post is an argument against helmet compulsion, NOT an argument against individual helmet wearing.

Tom – I don’t think anyone is questing that wearing something on your head makes things hurt less.

For me its the ‘the helmet saved my life’ – ‘how lucky I was wearing a helmet, my head would have been in bits if not’ statements.

These kinds of statements are not based on any more fact than those people saying helmets are a waste of time. Unfortunately we wear helmets because we think it will do us good, when there really isn’t much evidence either way – which is very very surprising for something sold as a safety item.

I always wear a helmet to ride, but I wish I’d been wearing one on Sunday morning to counter my wife’s most successful attempt yet on my life. I went into one of our floor to ceiling cupboard in the kitchen looking for something in the lower section. I was crouched down and heard something move on the 6 foot high upper shelf. A split second later I was smashed on the back of the head by the iron which had been put right at the front of the shelf. My guess is that the flex was hanging down and I may have moved a broom that pulled on it.

Thank god the kids were outside as I think I may have invented some new swear words as I was balled up on the kitchen floor.

I still have a very big and sore lump on the back of my head.

The iron is now stored at ground level.

Oh dear Pawsey, stopping with your head is never a good idea, glad you are OK, need to arrange trip down to see you for a ride whilst we have the weather (avoiding speed bumps obviously)

I still have a very big and sore lump on the back of my head.

But you didn’t die. Its amazing how tough heads can be, yet marketing and the modern world suggest they are very fragile.

I never used to bother on the road as I thought I was taking less risks than mtb but after being hit by seemingly blind drivers I’d say there’s definitely more risk there.

I fall off my mtb way more than my road bike.

but I wish I’d been wearing one on Sunday morning to counter my wife’s most successful attempt yet on my life.

well…

If I know I am going to be engaged in an activity already anyway… I could be wearing a device that most likely would add protection and not add risk. The device is comfortable and doesn’t impinge.

Why wouldn’t I?why aren’t you wearing a helmet for pottering about the house? You fool!
I’ll let you off from wearing one in the shower as it would affect your hairwashing regime but otherwise you really should be wearing a helmet from getting out of bed to going back to bed – it’s common sense!

I’ll let you off from wearing one in the shower as it would affect your hairwashing regime but otherwise you really should be wearing a helmet from getting out of bed to going back to bed – it’s common sense!

Surely people still dont stand to shower!!?? Have you not heard how many people slip in the shower, yes you can install anti-slip dots and mats but why not just sit and remove the risk entirely.

The device it is comfortable and doesn’t impinge.

Why wouldn’t I?

Anyone who doesn’t “believe in helmets” should go outside and bang their head against the ground repeatedly. If they’re still able to, try it again with a helmet on and see which hurts the most.

My problem with this is that you could replace ‘helmet’ with, say ‘oven gloves’, and suggest trying to take something out of the oven and see which hurts the most. Nobody’s* going to disagree that helmets/oven gloves are a good choice in those scenarios.

But you probably wouldn’t then go on to suggest that this shows anyone who doesn’t wear oven gloves all the time is an idiot.

Doing exactly that for helmets only makes any sense if you assume that banging your head on the ground while cycling is very likely to happen. Or far more likely than any number of other scenarios where you could get hurt and there’s some sort of PPE that would help if you were wearing it at the time. And I don’t think the facts bear that assumption out.

*Some people probably do though

EDIT
Actually Bez said basically this but better:

I don’t think anyone here is discouraging the use of a helmet (though I know of at least one person who does*) and I’m also not arguing that helmets provide no trauma protection, because I believe they do (to a point). But it’s absolutely fair to point out that wearing one isn’t anything like the “common sense” protection that people think it is. And it’s absolutely fair to dismiss an anecdote about the sort of freak accident that one might encounter in all sorts of scenarios: if you’re going to cite an inexplicable tumble at less than 5mph as a reason to wear one but you don’t wear one when you go out drinking, or travel in a car, or all sorts of other things, then your approach to anecdata—let alone real data—is perverse.

Makes me laugh when people post pics of wearing protection equipment in cars!

What do you think all those airbags are for??

They don’t prevent all head injuries.

Head injuries to car occupants in crashes on Australian roads are a major cause of death and
permanent brain damage.

http://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/216767/atsb160.pdf

skellnonch

Ha ha, help I’m being stalked! Yeah come on down. Had a great weekend with some friends from London. Dry trails, endless single track

It was a particular large speed bump on the lakeside pedestrian path ……….

Doing exactly that for helmets only makes any sense if you assume that banging your head on the ground while cycling is very likely to happen. Or far more likely than any number of other scenarios where you could get hurt and there’s some sort of PPE that would help if you were wearing it at the time. And I don’t think the facts bear that assumption out.

I’ve hit my head falling off a bike more times than I have when doing normal day to day things so based on my own experiences it’s a lot more likely. Though tbh some of them have actually been when I wasn’t wearing a helmet and I didn’t die but I would have been a lot comfier (and possibly concussion-free) if I’d have been wearing a helmet.

I’d never ride on the road without a helmet any more, had too many near misses at speed with clueless drivers.

Yet again! Another helmet thread with no real thorough research! People once again letting their arguments get way ahead of the data. Otherwise we wouldn’t have had this gem…

I’ll let you off from wearing one in the shower as it would affect your hairwashing regime

A simple, cursory read of my posts on here – aka background research, would have revealed the fact that I have admitted many times to being bald, hair free, bare pated, unemcumbered by cranial fur.

You sir, are a rank amateur! How dare you suggest that I shower sans helmet! I know we may differ in our approach to cycling without a helmet, but do you really wish me to die and die ignominiously in my shower of a totally preventable head injury. You are a barbarian and are definitely no gentleman!

First image is a g-force trace taken with a helmet

The second is without a helmet, half way up is where permanent brain damage occurs. Nearer the top is when you become Michael Schumacher.

I’ll carry on wearing the helmet.

Doing exactly that for helmets only makes any sense if you assume that banging your head on the ground while cycling is very likely to happen. Or far more likely than any number of other scenarios where you could get hurt and there’s some sort of PPE that would help if you were wearing it at the time. And I don’t think the facts bear that assumption out.

I’ve never, even as a todler, banged my head whilst walking. I’ve done it numerous times cycling at 5mph.

Nearer the top is when you become Michael Schumacher.

His helmet worked well.

I’ve never, even as a todler, banged my head whilst walking I’ve done it numerous times cycling at 5mph.

You’re a bit accident prone then. A helmet may be a good idea for you. Doesn’t mean everyday cycling is dangerous enough for anyone else to need a helmet. I’ve been cycling since the 1960s without a helmet. A few falls but no head injuries.

His injury IIRC was exacerbated by the increased force applied through rotational injury caused by his helmet-mounted camera…?

I’ve been cycling since the 1960s without a helmet. A few falls but no head injuries.

Does that mean people don’t get head injuries cycling? 🙄

But you probably wouldn’t then go on to suggest that this shows anyone who doesn’t wear oven gloves all the time is an idiot.

Hmm yes but hot things don’t suddenly appear and need carrying without any warning.

When cycling, cars come by you all the time, except some of them very occasionally knock you off.

Makes me laugh when people post pics of wearing protection equipment in cars! What do you think all those airbags are for?? They are precisely designed to stop hard points hitting your head (especially in a side impact) and most people who buy a modern car want (and get) airbags, so you already DO (in effect) wear your helmet in your car, it’s just that it is integrated in the car rather than being put on your head……….

Approximately 50% of all traumatic brain injury occurs inside motor vehicles; data from the US and the UK both show this. Data from Germany show that the rate of head injury in seriously injured casualties is around 86% for pedestrians, cyclists and car occupants. For sure some cars are more protective than others but I wouldn’t assume that once a collision is underway your head is necessarily safer in a car than it is at any other time.

I reckon I was travelling 20-25mph when I stopped dead with a head/rock interface yesterday. The helmet doesn’t cover the part of my head that was struck, but (and I can’t state this 100%) I’d be guessing the helmet took some of the force away. I’ll be getting a bigger helmet!

This is where I hit – opposite side to break in jaw

Hmm yes but hot things don’t suddenly appear and need carrying without any warning.

When cycling, cars come by you all the time, except some of them very occasionally knock you off.

Well, that’s sort of my point. I could say, when driving, cars come by you all the time, except some of them occasionally hit your car (causing head injuries- see Bez’s posts).

I’m not arguing that you’ll never bang your head cycling and that a helmet will never do you any good. I’m saying that it’s not clear that it needs to be treated as some sort of special case. As far as I’m aware the perception that it’s super dangerous being on a bike at any time without a helmet just isn’t borne out by the stats.

And it should be obvious that I’m not talking about ‘enthusiastic’ mountain biking here.

You sir, are a rank amateur! How dare you suggest that I shower sans helmet! I know we may differ in our approach to cycling without a helmet, but do you really wish me to die and die ignominiously in my shower of a totally preventable head injury. You are a barbarian and are definitely no gentleman!

😆
I do <mostly> wear a helmet while cycling BTW
what we possibly disagree on is public attitudes towards helmets
😉

Well there are risks when driving, of course – and I take steps to mitigate that by having airbags. Likewise, when cycling I take steps by wearing a helmet. Never thought this was unreasonable.. 🙂

Data from Germany show that the rate of head injury in seriously injured casualties is around 86% for pedestrians, cyclists and car occupants. For sure some cars are more protective than others but I wouldn’t assume that once a collision is underway your head is necessarily safer in a car than it is at any other time

Ok but how does number and placement of airbags affect injury rate? Are the people with head injuries all driving older cars without airbags?

Also, in cars people tend to be doing 50-odd mph, whereas they aren’t whilst walking or cycling. However we do have a set of road users who are doing similar speeds without any airbags or external protection, called motorcyclists, and their injury statistics would suggest that your head probably is safer in a car along with the rest of you.

I’ve never, even as a todler, banged my head whilst walking. I’ve done it numerous times cycling at 5mph.

[quote]I’ve hit my head falling off a bike more times than I have when doing normal day to day things so based on my own experiences it’s a lot more likely.[/quote]I’ve received quite a few head injuries, 4 lots of stitches, staples, concussion and amnesia, while doing various stuff, none while cycling, most of them were everyday things and none of them were traditional helmetwear activities.

my anecdata evidence > you anecdata
😉

I did bump my head once as a kid riding my bike, nothing serious, but I do also tend to be more fastidious getting the kids to wear helmets.

A couple of years ago, waiting on a bus in Fort William, I watched a morbidly obese woman literally screaming at her toddler that she couldn’t ride her bike if she didn’t put her (badly adjusted and poorly fitting) helmet back on. I remember musing on what lessons that kid was subconsciously taking away from this regarding eating, exercise and risk assessment.

Being the height of most doorways means that i must walk with great care. I’ve been knocked out a couple of times by cracking my bonce on stairwells that i’ve taken with a touch too much enthusiasm. I typically bang my head more times in an average month just walking about than i have in a lifetime of riding bikes (80% of which was without a lid). I do wear a lid on the bike now (mostly) as i ride a bit faster than i walk.

This was, and shall remain, a cool story.