To go tubeless, yay or nay?

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  • To go tubeless, yay or nay?
  • b r
    Member

    Ive just bought some of Hope’s own Enduro wheels and really like them but getting 2.3 Hans Dampf’s on them without ruining the tube or the rim was hair pullingly annoying.

    I cant imagine having to change a tube on the trail as it even took the LBS a fairly long time with plenty of persusion to get them on the rim. Another plus point would be that I’d be saving a little bit on rotating weight as I’ve felt a bit sluggish up the hills.

    So, questions are, is tubeless more reliable than tubed? will I suffer with burping? Generally reliable?

    Yes, but don’t try tubeless until you can get your own tyres on – otherwise we’ll get another ‘tubeless is crap’ post

    slowjo
    Member

    ^What he said.

    Premier Icon breadcrumb
    Subscriber

    The weight saving isn’t worth mentioning either.

    I run tubeless to stop pinch punctures. I couldn’t go back to tubes now.

    dooge
    Member

    Is there special ways of getting the tyres on to the rims other than having the finger strength of a silverback gorilla?

    dooge
    Member

    Ive just bought some of Hope’s own Enduro wheels and really like them but getting 2.3 Hans Dampf’s on them without ruining the tube or the rim was hair pullingly annoying.

    I cant imagine having to change a tube on the trail as it even took the LBS a fairly long time with plenty of persusion to get them on the rim. Another plus point would be that I’d be saving a little bit on rotating weight as I’ve felt a bit sluggish up the hills.

    So, questions are, is tubeless more reliable than tubed? will I suffer with burping? Generally reliable?

    Premier Icon Scapegoat
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    dooge
    heel of your hand with the wheel lying flat on the floor, or even tread on them.

    And yes, I noticed my rear was a bit squishy after a ride round our fantastic Southern Pennine bridleways, and found an inch long slit that had obviously newly appeared, then sealed itself nicely. A full inspection of the tyre showed over fifty little nicks and cuts which had all got the telltale shine of sealant around them, so that’s over fifty times I haven’t had to stop and patch or swap a tube. Yay.

    b r
    Member

    Is there special ways of getting the tyres on to the rims other than having the finger strength of a silverback gorilla?

    Yes, go tubeless and then use tyre levers 🙂

    Premier Icon teethgrinder
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    Just remember to run enough pressure in the front so you don’t burp the tyre, lose all the air and £3 of jizz, go OTB and land on your knee, thigh, elbow and have the bike **** you in the back of the head in Chopwell last night.

    Premier Icon somouk
    Subscriber

    Hans Dampfs are hard to get on the rim, just make sure you get the first bead on in to the recessed middle of the rim and then put the other bead on making sure the sections of that bead that are on are also in the middle of the rim.

    Worked for me, i found my schwalbes even harder to get on or off.

    Stans rims and Hans Dampfs on a mates 650 last week was a total disaster We still cant get them to seal. Left him with tubes to fit on it. It wouldn’t even bead to the edge of the rim with 100 psi and the whole drive swimming in washing up liquid and stans. Never had any luck with stans rims, always been impossible to set up, unlike Mavics which go pop, pop and job done.

    dooge
    Member

    Interesting. I was told that you should never use tyre levers on tubeless tyres if you ever want to run them tubeless as it mangles the bead slightly. I have tried to keep the other side of the tyre in the middle but seems hard to do with a wide tyre on a thin rim.

    I always thought they were a Stans based rim with eyelets just down to dimensions matching up with weights being similar.

    Teethgrinder, sounds nasty!

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    I’m a big tubeless fan- the fact that I do, oh, 95% of my riding tubeless, and get 100% of all my punctures on tubes, is pretty decisive for me. But, I’ve got a compressor in the garage, I’d be much less keen if I didn’t!

    breadcrumb – Member

    The weight saving isn’t worth mentioning either.

    Couple of hundred grams, worth mentioning imo.

    Premier Icon teethgrinder
    Subscriber

    Compressor is rather useful.

    dooge
    Member

    I thought a 200g per wheel minimum with standard tubes is a decent saving. Im persuaded to do it and my LBS said they will do the legwork!

    Duffer
    Member

    Do the tubeless riders carry around tubes when out on the trails? If you’ve had to use a compressor to get it set up, then you’re not going to have much luck if you have an issue trailside…

    I’ve only just got myself a tubeless setup, but i’ve been happily running tubes with sealant in for years. Never had a trailside puncture while using ‘Joe’s no flats’ tubes.

    Premier Icon oxym0r0n
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    Can’t remember last using a tube!

    Premier Icon nemesis
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    The weight saving isn’t worth mentioning either.
    I run tubeless to stop pinch punctures. I couldn’t
    go back to tubes now.

    +1

    I used to be plagued by pinch flats and occasional punctures. I’m now not. I have tubeless on all my mtb and my cx. Even when I have got a thorn in the tyre it’s sealed so at worst I’ve just had to pump a small amount of air in.

    I would say though that tubeless swaps faff on the trail for faff in the garage. At least at the start.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    Been ghetto duct tape/gorillia tape tubeless since 2004, never had an issue with burping or otherwise – never had the hassle of ever sorting a puncture or flat either – what is the point of running tubes these days?.

    Of all the advances over the years i’ll keep tubeless and disc brakes, not bothered about suspension whether that be front or rear.

    Premier Icon kayak23
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    I tried tubeless. Stans flows, exo Ardents, all the shizzle .
    Worked really well…….until they didn’t and I had two crashes, one at high speed where the tyre decided to burp and send me down the trail on the rim at Afan and I launched into the rocky bank.
    This was after a few weeks with no issues.
    For that reason, I’m out.

    Premier Icon nemesis
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    I never get burping because I’m heavy so even at tubeless pressures, there’s enough air in there (20-25psi) to prevent it.

    Out of interest, those getting burping, what pressures are you running?

    rudedog
    Member

    kayak23 – Member
    I tried tubeless. Stans flows, exo Ardents, all the shizzle .
    Worked really well…….until they didn’t and I had two crashes, one at high speed where the tyre decided to burp and send me down the trail on the rim at Afan and I launched into the rocky bank.
    This was after a few weeks with no issues.
    For that reason, I’m out.

    Ardents coming off the rim isnt a tubeless only issue – it happened to my front wheel at the weekend with a tubed set up which sent me over the bars.

    It must be the tyre that’s taking the effort and not the rim – just bought one for the fron and my Spesh Eskar almost put itself on.

    Had to blow it up to 60psi to seat it properly though.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    Thrustyjust wrote:

    Stans rims and Hans Dampfs on a mates 650 last week was a total disaster

    I find the 26″ ones work fine

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Duffer – Member

    Do the tubeless riders carry around tubes when out on the trails? If you’ve had to use a compressor to get it set up, then you’re not going to have much luck if you have an issue trailside…

    I don’t need the compressor- it just makes things quick and easy. With a track pump, every so often some tyre smells weakness and puts up a fight, I’ve always won in the end but it can be pretty frustrating.

    I carry a tube when riding. Though it’s a very long time since I’ve had to fit it, I’ve saved a few other people’s rides though. (in fact my last trailside puncture repair was the 12th August 2013 😉 ) Some tyre damage can make reinflating without a tube impossible, but in any case I wouldn’t count on seating a tubeless tyre with a portable pump.

    Some folks swear by CO2 for this though.

    maxtorque
    Member

    my dampfs were a right pita to get on, but strangely, only the first time. I guess they stretch a bit after a while, and although they are still “tight” to get off, they are not impossible (levers needed, but placcy ones work now)

    Slogo
    Member

    Im tubeless, took the hans off today for the summer.

    they were really tight but easy once you know how 8)

    I carry a spare tube just in case as I’m not walking home.

    I went tubeless this year, I’ll never go back.

    dirtydog
    Member

    dooge – Member

    I thought a 200g per wheel minimum with standard tubes is a decent saving. Im persuaded to do it and my LBS said they will do the legwork!
    I don’t how you get the figure of 200 grams per wheel, you’re replacing a 200 gram inner tube with 60-120 grams or so of sealent (dependent on tyre size) +valves.

    It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

    Premier Icon eddiebaby
    Subscriber

    Last weekend went tubeless. Hans Damfs on Crests. The tyres had been run tubed for 600 Miles and the conversion was effortless. Just a track pump.
    Still carry a tube but also the Weldtite Tubeless repair kit simples!

    skinnyboy
    Member

    I think the cosmos favours tubeless when it fancies. Ive put them on in no time and other times I’ve raged for hours only to collapse in the foetal position under the workbench. I found the with experience that rim profiles must be the culprit. On Mavics the HansD’s struggled, on my Nukeproofs (sunringle basically) they glided on. Oh and use shaving gel to seat them, nectar of the wheelgods!

    Premier Icon breadcrumb
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    I don’t how you get the figure of 200 grams per wheel, you’re replacing a 200 gram inner tube with 60-120 grams or so of sealent (dependent on tyre size) +valves.
    It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

    This is what I meant by not worth mentioning. Unless you run bare minimum amount of sealant and are replacing heavy tubes you aren’t going to save much weight. Plus a few grams for a valve too.

    I normally run a fair bit of sealant too, puncture paranoia!

    Some claim to feel a difference once they’ve ditched the tube, I can’t.

    russ295
    Member

    Ghetto method here. Only had one in incident that needed extra sealant and co2 in over a year.
    Plastic bottle method for sealing.
    It does feel different. Not sure how but it does, they feel as if there flat and a bit squirmy but in a good way.

    deanfbm
    Member

    I really like tubeless on my xc bike, but on my bikes where i do anything exciting i ran into burping issues, ended up running higher pressures than i would with a tube and it became a bit pointless.

    kendo954
    Member

    I’ve nearly gave up on tubless, out of my 4 wheels on the two mtb’s only 1 is still tubeless, I ride mostly natural rocky terrain and even with running decent pressure I’ve had ‘burping’ but more of a problem is getting punctures that just won’t seal….

    Premier Icon rickmeister
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    Found taking the valve core out to start with a track pump ans seat the tyre helps… Also getting the tyre on, start opposite the valve and work back towards it. Helps the bead sit in the centre channel of the rim…

    robbonzo
    Member

    Get some pedros tyre levers, best there is.

    twohats
    Member

    I went tubeless a couple of years ago. Run Arch EX with Hans Dampfs, never had issues fitting them, seating them, removing them or burping them! Just put my super gravity’s back on for the Alps, no tire levers needed and inflated with a track pump.

    The problem with bike tubeless, unlike say cars, is the sheer variability of equipment and methods of achieving it. With variability comes mixed results.

    Take UST, it’s a bombproof setup. It rarely goes wrong putting tyres on. It works for everyone irrespective of their experience but its heavy and expensive. Throw in all the other possible ways of achieving tubeless, and those with less experience or a less technical mindset have a greater chance of suffering doing it wrong or mis-matching components that don’t play well together, because there is no given tubeless standard beyond UST.

    We’re not all lucky enough to get it right first time, or observe the reasons for our failures, hence the high variability of ‘tubeless is crap’ through to ‘tubeless is amazing’ comments, sometimes for the same equipment. Even the way it’s sold to us varies, so our expectations vary from the outset.

    I’ve used tubeless in one iteration or another since 2003. Starting with full on DIY and working through a lot of problems over the years. Here’s what I think/have learned:

    Tubeless can save you weight.
    It you ride in rough terrain, going lighter can compromise your tyre durability because the butyl liner formed by an inner tube is not present. Mostly this happens when you use non tubeless tyres with a rims strip. It manifests often as buggered sidewalls and tears in the carcass. IMO you should forget about weight savings from tubeless unless you’re an XC type. Put the weight saved back into a tyre with a more durable sidewall and carcass.

    Tubeless will save you punctures.
    And lots of them. It’s exceptionally good with thorn punctures, but is not infallible. Sidewall cuts, snakebites and carcass tears, unless small will need help to seal by a plug of some kind, so carry some. Anchovy kits are the best but use them generously, not sparingly. Rarely have I seen sealant reliably hold a medium to large hole of this type. Thorn punctures are only a problem if you skimp on sealant or run dry. Sometimes running dry happens way quicker than you think.

    Tubeless gives you better grip and rolling resistance.
    All true. How much depends on your pressures. Go too low and you risk rim strikes and snakebites, soggy feeling handling in corners and air burps in tyre torsion situations.

    Tubeless setup can be easy or difficult.
    No surprises there then, given the content of this thread. As a rule, DIY tubeless is the least reliable and most difficult to setup, hybrid systems like rims strips for normal tyres are in the middle and designed systems are the most reliable and easy to setup. Hybrid systems can perform as well as designed systems or they can be an infuriating mess of failure and stickiness mostly related to tyre inflation. Although I have seen a couple of non tubeless maxxis beads stretch and become less reliable over time, nearly all inflation problems I’ve encountered have come from the closeness of the initial fit between tyre bead and the rim. Reduce this with tape or packing of some type and most of your hassle will disappear, although you must ensure there is adequate space just next to the rim bead for the tyre to sit in.
    Some of the tyre and rims combinations are the reverse of this, being very tight and don’t like to snap to the beads – lubricate them before inflation to help into position. Running around each bead/ rim with soapy water is usually enough. Bear in mind that if it was a bitch to inflate in your garage, it will be nigh on impossible to do it on the trail, so do yourself a favour and set it up so the its reliable in the luxury of your garage so you have a fighting chance of getting a re inflation on the trail.

    ‘Carry a tube for your tubeless just in case’
    This has been more useful to people I ride with than me. When you eventually do get a tubeless puncture, any tube you put in will be instantly perforated by the countless thorns already present that you have completely failed to notice because tubeless was doing its job. Do you fancy pulling out say, 18 (my last count out of curiosity) thorns to ensure that your tube stays up? I’d rather leave the tyre on the rim and push in a few anchovy plugs thanks.

    There, I’ve said my bit. That’s about it.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Scienceofficer – Member

    Tubeless can save you weight.
    It you ride in rough terrain, going lighter can compromise your tyre durability because the butyl liner formed by an inner tube is not present. Mostly this happens when you use non tubeless tyres with a rims strip. It manifests often as buggered sidewalls and tears in the carcass. IMO you should forget about weight savings from tubeless unless you’re an XC type. Put the weight saved back into a tyre with a more durable sidewall and carcass.

    This really depends on your taste in tyres- I use the tyres I like not the tyres I think are lightest for the job, and they’re all suitable for tubes or tubeless- I’d still be using my Butchers if I went back to tubes, frinstance. But yeah, it can be a consideration

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    dirtydog – Member

    I don’t how you get the figure of 200 grams per wheel, you’re replacing a 200 gram inner tube with 60-120 grams or so of sealent (dependent on tyre size) +valves.

    It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

    That’s not the best comparison though, 100g of sealant is a far more reliable/punctureproof approach than a skinny tube. For a fair comparison you’d be looking at a 200, 250g tube to get equivalent performance. So in your case, you’ve traded some of hte weight saving for durability, which is fair enough but it’s still there.

    dirtydog
    Member

    In my case Northwind I never suffered from pinch flats anyway, to be honest Im a bit disillusioned with the whole light wheels tubeless thing.

    Ive recently gone from 2.1kg wheelset with tubes to a 1.7kg wheelset without tubes, cost me close to 200 quid and cant say I’ve noticed much, if any difference.

    Before anyone comments……… nothing wrong with the wheels, I built them, they are true and at the correctly tensioned.

    dirtydog
    Member

    Edit sorry double post

    dooge
    Member

    Lots of interesting answers! Esp Scienceofficer.

    Im an ex DH rider, I only ride up to ride down so im always going to error on the side of heavy. My bike isnt compromised and I wouldnt do something to compromise it, including tubeless if I was mega hard on tyres or tubes. Im going tubeless to hopefully have less hassle, save any amount of weight and possibly run a lower pressure if I need it. Im not a man of accuracies, I have no idea how much pressure I run in my tyres but go by feel.

    Thanks for the replies!

    If anyone has had enough and wants rid of some tubeless wheels, let me know! I’d definitely be interested in a singlespeed specific rear/pair with Stans rims 🙂

    marky29er
    Member

    I’m in the not camp being quite heavy. I’ve had front pinch flats at speed on fast descents. Plenty of time to haul up the bike safely, throw another tube in and carry on.
    I wouldn’t fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do.

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