In the last 2 days i’ve finally started finding my off road legs again after 3 months of back problems.Got a Four Supreme.Bought frame 2nd hand .Must say after 15 years of hardtail loyalty reluctantly am impressed.With Pro Pedal on the climbing was an eye opener and of course the down bits..well! 8)

2nd hand Kona’s are reasonable value the RRP is the problem, especially when you look at the spec.

Love my Kula adore my King Kikapu Geometry feels the same no matter which i ride. More fun than my last three girlfriends in a silk bag.

Mate wouldn’t be without his Dawg

don’t know if it’s the same in the UK but the Kona shops in Madrid sell all Konas at about 30% off (minimum), so you can pick up some very good bargains.

And the wife adores her Easton-framed Kula Lisa 🙂

V happy with my Caldera, although it’s had quite a lot of kit upgraded. Right now it is sweet as.

So your reply to people who would criticise Kona is – You’ve been off your bike for 3 months. You bought a kona full susser, after riding hardtails for 15 years and you are impressed?

Not exactly the most glittering praise for Kona is it? They havent invested in any new technologies or tried to develop their designs in any meaningful way. They’ve become stagnant basically. God help them if they ever do decide to revamp their bikes….imo they’ll have a long hill to climb. Their bikes are okay, but primitive by todays standards. Also they are over priced and under equiped.

I would really love a Four. They look lovely lovely bikes!

Primitive maybe (so am i) but you know what if it works thats fine by me.

They do work, just not as well as other designs. You only realise this when you try out some other bikes in anger…..then your kona just doesn’t seem to cut it anymore 😥

Dont ride any other bikes and you’ll be happy.

They havent invested in any new technologies

Apart from the magic link.

or tried to develop their designs in any meaningful way.

Apart from the Four, the 5.0, the 29er Heihei?

Do they ride well? Yes. So why should they be a bad bike company? Don’t get it. They’re an option for potential bike purchasers, try them, if you like them buy them.

Maybe Gnargnar’s one of these marketing obsessed people we were talking about last week?

I’m going to buy a Paddy Wagon.

Why do people seem to think that every mm of tubing on a bike needs to be hydroformed into a work of art ?

Kona have simply decided that a normal tube works just as well – live with it !!!

As for people moaning abouttheir graphics – wtf ! What difference does that make when its covered in mud – maybe that the problem arond here, people don’t get them dirty !

…but primitive by todays standards

So’s my 06 Heckler then… But it works, really well.

molgrips –

Apart from the magic link.

Oh ffs, that’s your answer? I take it back, they have revolutionised bicyle suspension.

Apart from the Four, the 5.0, the 29er Heihei?

Radical stuff.

Do they ride well? Yes. So why should they be a bad bike company? Don’t get it. They’re an option for potential bike purchasers, try them, if you like them buy them.

Comparitively speaking, no they do not. But they cost the same as their competitors. This is an internet forum, a place for debate and exchanging opinions. If I want to express how I feel about Kona bikes I will.

Maybe Gnargnar’s one of these marketing obsessed people we were talking about last week?

No, I am one of those “mountain bike riding people” the kind who actually rides bikes, as opposed to collecting them. I’ve owned 3 Konas. Still have one, compared to the many other bikes of a similar ilk which I’ve tried it is primitive in all respects, what more can I say. I am expressing an opinion, based on my personal experience. What’s your problem?

GNARGNAR is obviously one of these riders who thinks technology will make him the rider he wants to be.

HTTP404 –
GNARGNAR is obviously one of these riders who thinks technology will make him the rider he wants to be.

Are you completely unable to objectively compare the performance of different bikes?

Oh never mind, just suck my balls.

Oh ffs, that’s your answer? I take it back, they have revolutionised bicyle suspension.

Yes it’s my answer. Why the FFS? It’s a new innovation, and you said they hadn’t made any. As for the 29er whatnot, it’s evolving their designs, when you said they didn’t do it.

You say they don’t ride well, I say they do. That is a matter of opinion and I’m sure you’ll appreciate me saying that – after all, it’s an internet forum as you rightly point out.

I just disagree with your assessment of the company. I don’t think you are doing them justice. You can’t come on and say they’re bad like it’s some kind of fact. They have changed their designs over the years, and they make nice bikes in some folks opinions. So there you go.

If I want to express how I feel about Kona bikes I will.

I don’t think I implied that you couldn’t. I’m sorry if I came over that way.. all I’m doing is disagreeing with you on whether or not Konas are nice bikes. I don’t have a problem with that, and I didn’t mean to imply that I did (cos that would be ridiculous).

Still, I like Konas, and others might too. So if you are shopping, try one 🙂

Kim’s are no more and no less sophisticated than most other bike brands. Certainly the level of equipment you get for the money means they’re overshadowed by the likes of Trek, but then Trek have Keith Bontrager to design all the bits that Kona have to buy in from the likes of Truvative, which will always mean the price point gets shifted against Kona value wise. As far as sophistication is concerned, gnargnar is being disingenuous about Kona being behind the times and rubbish as a result. Drek. Kona’s hardtails are as good as anyone’s, and even their faux-bar full-sus bikes ride perfectly well enough for the average mountain biker. Obviously gnargnar’s skills are so finely honed that a Kona is totally inadequate, which is fine, but I’d be willing to bet that my mate Sean who actually rides Konas, Treks and Gary Fishers, hardtails, full-sus, 29er, 26er, the lot, could leave him trailing on any Kona gnargnar cares to name. Up till pretty recently his bike of choice was a Dawg Delux, which would get thrashed all over Wales and the Forest of Dean. I’m going to scrounge a new 29er hardtail which is beautiful, lovely colours and graphics and seriously light. Good enough for the average sort of biker who can’t match up to the standard set by gnargnar.

molgrips – Member

Yes it’s my answer. Why the FFS? It’s a new innovation, and you said they hadn’t made any. As for the 29er whatnot, it’s evolving their designs, when you said they didn’t do it.

Because I dont rate it, I think it is a tacked on gimmick as opposed to a well sussed design, I also doubt that something like that has any business on a bike like a coiler. Adjustable geometry yes, but hardwired into the design as opposed to tacked on. The other bikes imo dont exactly represent much in terms of evolution.

You say they don’t ride well, I say they do. That is a matter of opinion and I’m sure you’ll appreciate me saying that – after all, it’s an internet forum as you rightly point out.

I’m saying relative to other bikes they dont perform as well. I think current VPP, dw link and commencals linkage system etc are superior in terms of overall suspension performance. Compare a Dawg to a meta 5, see what I mean. If you prefer the dawg, fair enough but I’d be suprised. Or better yet compare a stab to a supreme, or to a socom.

CountZero – Obviously gnargnar’s skills are so finely honed that a Kona is totally inadequate, which is fine, but I’d be willing to bet that my mate Sean who actually rides Konas, Treks and Gary Fishers, hardtails, full-sus, 29er, 26er, the lot, could leave him trailing on any Kona gnargnar cares to name. Up till pretty recently his bike of choice was a Dawg Delux, which would get thrashed all over Wales and the Forest of Dean. I’m going to scrounge a new 29er hardtail which is beautiful, lovely colours and graphics and seriously light. Good enough for the average sort of biker who can’t match up to the standard set by gnargnar.

Oh just feel free to distort what I said, funny how everyone has a mate who is a brilliant rider who could woop everyone’s ass isn’t it.

My “mate” used to race world cups, and is internationally recognised as a great biker across many disciplines. He rides kona’s too, because they sponsor him. I think he’ll have your mate any day.

Instead of replying to your waffle I’ll just pose a question again – Can you honestly say that you CANNOT appreciate any difference between the various suspension platforms available today?

If you can’t then fair enough. I didnt think it took any amazing degree of skill or special ability to determine which bikes pedalled better, gripped better or absorbed impacts better but seemingly you do. I assumed it was simply a case of riding different bikes and being objective about their relative performance.

I thought everyone possesed this, but based on the above perhaps not. If I am the only person who can tell the difference between varying bike designs I wonder why companies waste their time developing them. Must be a cynical marketing ploy.

Did you know that the Specialized suspension designe is 17 years old this year?

Can you honestly say that you CANNOT appreciate any difference between the various suspension platforms available today?

I can appreciate the differences. I am a very astute rider and I pay a great deal of attention to the characteristics of my bikes, which is why I spend so much time faffing with them and adjusting them.

I haven’t ridden loads of different suspension designs (but then, a lot of people haven’t). Personally I am more concerned with geometry than plushness of suspension, which is why I race on a Kona. I do my trail riding on Oranges – I feel the Kona offerings for trail bikes are to heavy. If they had the magic link when I was shopping for a big bike I’d have given it some serious consideration. And even if you don’t like it, it’s still an innovation.

I rode a few bikes when I was shopping for insurance replacements, but I was getting deals on Oranges and Konas. I test rode a couple of bikes, decided I loved the Kona, so I bought it. I didn’t want to shop around loads more.

Am I allowed to like Konas? Without being branded a wrong-headed fool? 🙂 I’m not trying to tell you they’re the best thing ever, but I like their bikes on the whole, and I like some of what they do as a company. Surely this has to be end of thread? I just want to be friends!

Spec-wise Kona definitely don’t represent good value for money compared to a lot of the competitors.

But I think the problem might be that Kona have an inflated presence in the UK. Over here they’re pretty big, everyone has heard of them, many have owned one etc. But worldwide they’re minnows compared to Trek, Spesh, GT etc so don’t have anywhere near the buying power.

Perhaps they shape up a bit better compared to someone like Marin?

I was one of those giving Kona a hard time earlier today. However, I’m looking for an alloy frame I can build up with drop bars, disc brakes, rack and guards. The Kona Dew drop looks like the only thing I can find!

“They havent invested in any new technologies”
Apart from the magic link”
Its on one bike, a bike which most people won’t buy.

Instead of redesigning the suspension to deal with problems with a linkage single pivot (thats waht the seatstay pivot ‘faux-bar’ is) they came up with the floating brake arm on the longer travel bikes. Maybe they’ve been prevented from using the FSR chainstay pivot, or the DW link, or Giants Maestro, or marins/whytes Quad Link and so on, but maybe they should have come up with a design of their own?

“Why do people seem to think that every mm of tubing on a bike needs to be hydroformed into a work of art?
Kona have simply decided that a normal tube works just as well”

The whole point of hydroforming is to increase the weld area at the tube ends and to manipulate the tubing in such a way that it can be made lighter, stronger or both

Kona do use hydroformed tubing

If you look close enough (its only subtle because they haven’t been using and developing it for as long) the top and down tubes are hydroformed

The 2009 hei hei, four, one20, dawg, and coilair all have some hydroformed tubing

“Trek have Keith Bontrager to design all the bits that Kona have to buy in from the likes of Truvative”

The vast majority of trek bikes don’t come with bontrager cranks, but shimano ones, so are buying from elsewhere.
Trek use Bontrager bars/stems/seatposts/wheels/saddles yes, but kona also do their own stems/bars/seatposts/grips and use them on the top end models, not just the bottom ones

“even their faux-bar full-sus bikes ride perfectly well enough for the average mountain biker”
Thats kind of the point, what about people who don’t just pootle about and actually get somewhere near pushing the design a bit, then konas can show themselves to be lesser than some of the competition

If you’re spending say £2k on a bike, then surely you should expecting something more than just average?

Did you know that all Konas, including the entry level £330 bike, have butted frames use forged head tubes, drop-outs and bottom bracket shells.

Did you know that all scandium frame and higher end Konas are made at the Hodaka factory in Taiwan. The same factory that produces the heavily manipulated frames for Scott. Dewey (designer) chooses not to have Konas tubes manipulated for purely cosmetic reasons.

I luvs me my coiler, it’s robust,matt black & was a bargain @ NZ$3500

“all Konas, including the entry level £330 bike, have butted frames use forged head tubes, drop-outs and bottom bracket shells”

As will every other manufacturer

Did you know that Kona is still owned by its two co founders Dan and Jake, they make only what they like and have no shareholders to answer to.

Did you know that Dewey, Konas chief designer, was the founder of the Deep Cove bike shop (Cove bikes) thats why the Dawg and the Hustler are so similar.

How dare people diss my Dawg. An aweome workhorse of a bike that stood up to loads of abuse from a clumsy, pie eating duffer with an over inflated opinion of his riding abilities and so went down stuff that maybe he shouldn’t. They might not have pretty swirly bendy tubes but seing as we’ve mentioned gimmicks, surely they’ve got to be the worst. I ride a Nomad now but still miss my Dawg. Especially places like the lactic ladder at Golspie. It’s a different matter at the top though! I have to agree that I would never pay the full RRP for one.

I must admit (my first comment on this Kona thing). I do think they are pretty much frozen in time (say upto 2004)- all the competition has been evolving. Kona is missing ‘something’. Their tubing looks really heavy across most of their range IMO. Not dainty at all.

Did you know that Kona have designed and built a bike (the Africa) that is provided free to healthcare workers in Africa, this is the third year of the project and many hundreds of bikes have been supplied and cosequently lives saved.

Did you know that the mainstream Kona bikes are manufactured alongside Marin bikes in the same factory in Taiwan and specification for pound are virtualy the same. Different type of ride though.

Did you know Peter the Great taxed people for growing beards and riding Marins. 😀
Actually the last bit isn’t true.

the only full susser i ever fell i love with was a coiler, and this coming for a dia hard kona hater, in fact i hate all canadian bike, they jus dot suit my ridig style (i prefer low and step bikes, kona and their ilk are slack and tall).

Not sure i agree with you gnarganr on likeing all other suspension systems, a VPP feels very different to a DW/meastro, which is different to a horst, which is different to a high single pivot, which is different to a ow single pivot.

Give me a slight rising rate, well controlled damping and more importantly geoetry that suts your riding. FWIW i hated VPP bikes when i test rode a blur, it felt horribl, lik you were riding a bike over trapdoors, it would randomly wallow if you pedal’d over bumps.

yourmothermakesteaforpaligap

Excellent posts, very funny (although not sure if that was the intent).

Did you know that Kona were some of the nicest spec’d and designed bikes in the early 90s (I’m sure you do), and that since then regardless of how good/bad/indifferent their (your) bikes are, they consistently look cheap. I do hope you don’t design the finishes…

I submit for evidence:

I am not saying I like all systems, I just think the others have moved on where Kona have not. Not every design suits my riding style but I can appreciate their relative merits.

For example, I am not overly fond of the maestro system, but comparing a reign to a coiler, the reign pedals noticeably better and seems to grip over rough terrain much much better.

With VPP bikes like the socom, I am not crazy about the way they sag so much, it’s disconcerting at first, to get the most out of it you seem to have to commit 100% to it – it rewards aggression which takes a bit of faith.

Like I said earlier, I am just trying to be objective, trying to see what performs where, trying to understand the various characteristics of different designs. I love bikes, and I find them very interesting. I try to ride as many as possible and I am fortunate that I ride with a large circle of friends so there are always plenty of bikes to test.

I haven’t bought a new bike in years, that doesnt mean I’m not thinking about it – when I do, I’ll choose the suspension system which I think is the best in the widest variety of conditions which that bike is likely to be in. I’ll probably adapt my riding style slightly to accommodate this new bike, but no doubt I’ll be used to it in no time, and it’ll be something I no longer think about.

Out of all of them I would lean towards intense’s vpp setup or commencal’s linkage system (whatever it’s called).

Compare this to the previous picture. I’m sure somebody will now expalin the differences between the Trek’s suspension design and the Kona’s, but just look how much neater the rocker is.

It seems Kona are getting slated, cos people don’t like the current look. The suspension design is essentially the same as Cove Hustler, older Trek Fuel EX’s and numerous other faux bar designs no doubt.

Orange haven’t changed their single pivot design for 10 years. Sure its evolved over the years but its not exactly radical new technology is it? Doesn’t seem to bother so many people does it? And those that pay the price for a frame that could buy a full bike from another brand.

Cotic have taken a horst link design. Cutting edge again eh, another 10 year or so old design? My god, all those people who paid all that money for a frame using such an old design 😉

Rocky Mountain don’t look so good value either.

The list goes on doesn’t it. Aside from Giant, Trek, Specialized looks like we’re all getting ripped off over the odds for our preferred ‘fix’ 😉

So far as comments about “the average mountain biker”, thats probably 95% of the people on here. You might prefer one design or another but ‘pushing the design limits’ of a bike….I don’t pootle but I wouldn’t kid myself I was pushing the design limits of a bike (for its intended use)…