Sorry for the long post, but I’d love some input please:

I never ride my full susser (Santa Cruz Blur Classic) any more – I just love riding my Marin Rocky Ridge. The geometry on the Marin feels just perfect for me. Even at 140mm, the Blur just doesn’t feel as well balanced – especially on the steep, twisty trails where I ride.

So I’m thinking about selling the Blur frame and using the bits to build up a second hardtail. It is impossible to frequent this forum and not feel tempted by a steel frame, but I have also been well impressed by the reviews of the On One Ti Evo 456. At £799 it seems like a great opportunity to buy a droolsome bike-for-life.

So, my questions are:

1. I’m not really great at cleaning and drying my bike after every ride. Even after asking the question several times, I still have a nagging fear of rust on steel frames. Is special attention needed on a Soul/BFe/Piglet to prevent rust? If you repeatedly put the bike away dirty/wet, will you have longevity problems?
2. Other than having a bike that other people might go “oooh” over, is the ride quality/longevity/maintenance free regime on a titanium frame really worth several hundred pounds over a steel or alu frame?
3. I run 2.3 inch tyres at 25-30 psi – will I really notice a difference in either steel or Ti? I sometimes think its just greed making me want a new bike at all!

Input from Ti riders especially welcome. Did anyone go back to steel? Or even worse, Alu? Is a Ti bike for life a realistic thing? Or do folks who’ve done this end up wanting something new after a few years anyway?

Thanks for your advice.

I’ve had half a dozen steel frames, a couple of Ti ones and some Alu.

Differences seem to be far more about how it was designed and built than the material it’s made from.

Use frame saver on a steel frame and it’ll be fine.

Currently I have a Curtis Steel hardtail and a Titus Fireline. They feel about the same to me. I would notice the difference comapred with an Inbred, though.

I wouldn;t consider Ti a ‘bike for life’ – I’d probably treat it as about the same life expectancy as a steel frame. They do seem to have a habit of gettign fatigue failures and, tbh, designs seem to change over time so what was ‘right for you’ now might not be in 4 or 5 years time anyway?

Just bought an alu road bike and it is sooo comfortable as well as fast. So I’m agreeing with wwaswas, don’t rule out aluminium, it’s more about the design.

Thanks for the Input. Sorry to be dumb, but what’s frame saver?

like Waxoyl – spray it inside all the tubes to act as a barrier.

on my curtis, ‘cos it’s brazed there’s no weld vent holes in any of the tubes so only the seattube and head tube are open to the air anyway.

It’s something you pour into the frame which coats it and prevents corrosion. I’ve never bothered and none of my steel frames seem the worse for it (including my ’95 Kona)

Thanks.

Geometry then
Tube diameter then
Material.

Two frames with the same geometry will handle pretty much the same.
Aluminimum needs bigger diameter tubes so frames will be more rigid
Steel and Ti will feel the same if tubes are similar diameter, but Ti is lighter.

It is perfectly possible to build a heavy flexible carbon frame by ignoring the above. But carbon allows a wider exploitation of the above boundaries.

John, the ‘new’ steel slackline is getting a bigger seatube apparently. Might be worth asking Dan Stanton when they are due or get our own stanton fanboi peeder to ask him.

Wouldn’t worry about corrosion either although I don’t keep a frame long enough 🙂

Ti frames are definitely not for life. Standards change, and so your old frame might be difficult to get new forks for in 10 years time. But more than that, any item you subject to the rough and tumble of regular offroad riding is going to have a realistic life expectancy before you’d want to replace it anyway… And I currently own a Ti frame that I really love by the way, but I know it’s not forever so in enjoying it whilst it lasts!

Moving onto your points…

1. Steel frames are painted or powder coated, some better than others. Maybe a bit of heli tape on areas of potential cable rub, and the occasional squirt of GT85 into any frame holes, are about all that’s required. I know plenty of old roadies riding around on 30-40 year old steel road frames that are still going strong, if a little outdated.

2. Highly subjective. If you look at things from a VFM basis, nothing is ever going to beat aluminium these days. Ti is a heart purchase, not a head one! You rarely hear of anyone (who can afford it) regretting buying a Ti frame though. Not all Ti frames are created equal though, which is something to be wary of, and of all the materials it’s probably the most variable in terms of ride feel for a completed frame. Some are much stiffer than others, and some are so flexy they can be a nightmare for anyone remotely powerful!

3. It is greed yes… But then we’re all greedy to an extent. How much you notice a difference is more to do with the design of an individual frame than the material itself, and unless you’re comparing like for like, you have no datum point for comparison! I changed from a Genesis Altutude in 853 steel to the Ti version of the same (same geometry, same design brief, same everything really except the material), which is about as close as you can get to two identical frames but in differing materials. The Ti one is about 600g lighter, so not inconsiderable. It’s no less stiff under power (thankfully cos that’s what I was worried about), but it feels very slightly more compliant. I’m talking the difference between a 2.2″ and a 2.3″ tyre here for comfort, but the Ti frame is very slightly nicer to ride IMO. All that said, I would never have paid anywhere near new price for it, I picked mine up for a bargain 2nd hand, otherwise I’d have kept the steel one!

Anyway… By all means buy a Ti frame, just don’t expect it to be a revelation. It will be subtly nicer than a steel or ally frame (and a good bit lighter than steel), but worth the extra money? Only you can decide!

with those tyre sizes & pressures frame material is gonna make nob all difference, if you are going for a do it all frame I would go aluminium & save the weight over a steel frame, if you splash out on Ti you will more than likely be too worried about stacking it & won’t have so much fun out riding.

1. No – decent steels are naturally fairly corrosion resistant and are coated inside and out to stop the steel being exposed anyway.
2. Personally I’d trust a good steel frame to outlast a Ti one.
3. I don’t know about Ti but my steel Soul is definitely less buzzy than my alu Boardman, despite wearing the same big low pressure tyres and the Boardman being a light built and not that stiff XC frame. Definitely not less bumpy though, less buzzy – the steel seems to absorb and damp the high frequency small amplitude vibrations.

Steel is a lot stiffer than Ti so a Ti frame would need much larger tubes to have equal rigidity. Generally Ti tubesets are a bit larger and a bit more flexible.

I’ve got 2 ti frames, one mtb and one cross/road.

The Voodoo D-Jab replaced a R853 Thorn Raven, which replaced a Cotic Simple. All of which rode similarly (given changes in geometry) but the Voodoo lost about 1kg in frame weight which surprised the hell out of me the first time I rode it up a challenging climb. All of a sudden I was at the top!

The ti cross bike has replaced an ally road bike and its massively, massively more comfortable, and its pretty much the same geometry and same weight.

I think new carbon designs are even better as they can be designed to flex in the right direction, yet be stiff in others and still weigh naff all. Depends what you’re after. If you want a bike you can ride for hours and hours, the flex of steel or ti is much nicer than a stiff ally frame, and the weight saving of ti over steel wins it for me, if you can justify the cash.
But if you’re just going to be riding it for a few hours here and there, ally has the budget weight saving sorted.

Anyway… By all means buy a Ti frame, just don’t expect it to be a revelation. It will be subtly nicer than a steel or ally frame

That sums up Ti for me. Nicer than steel but for me not enough to justify the cost. For you, that might be different.

Ive just gone from steel to Ti this weekend.
(I am not riding anything as “Gnarrcore” as I`d imagined and I fancy lightening everything up.
I went from Coil u-turn Lyriks a while back to Dual position Air Revelations as the first step. I like Long travel hard tails and fat tyres, but am not hucking off 8′ to flat drops)

I went from a Norco Torrent (which I loved geometry/stiffness wise, but not the weight)
to a 1st generation Ragley Blue pig (16″) which I`ve been riding for over 2 years and really loved it.
So much so, I have been looking for a 1st generation Ragley Ti to replace it with but they are seemingly like Rocking horse droppings S/H

So I brought a S/H Brodie Holeshot Ti which is pretty much bang on geometry wise to the ragley, but 1/2″ longer in the top tube (Medium / 17″ frame)

Exactly the same build as my Ragley, Essentially just a frame swap.
The only difference is going from a 27.2mm Thompson seatpost on the ragley, to a 31.6mm Ragley Spike on the Brodie.

First ride this weekend, 66km, bridleways with some decent climbs and decents.
The Ti frame beat me up a lot less than the steel one would have, it was easier climbing (weighs less) and just seemed to get better the faster it was ridden, still forgiving but more compliant at the rear, and the front end felt a bit more planted but this is probably more to do with the shorter stack head tube at the front.

I kept the Ragley in case the TI frame was not the quantifiable difference I hoped it would be, but it will be sold now as I cant see me going back to it.

The Brodie will do all that the Blue pig did, with a nicer ride and less weight (But I would suspect i`d have got the same result going to the Ragley Ti as well, I just couldnt find one for love nor money)

I couldnt justify buying new, but a Ti Upgrade for effectively the price of a new soul frame (Another option) was something I could live with
HTH
Dom

A long ride for me is 4 hours (that’s a really long ride for me!!!). This is really useful input thanks.

Would it be worth maybe trying out the steel 456 Evo for a short time, with some of the bits you’d like to fit to thr Ti just see if you like the geometry and then flogging that frame on for a minimal financial loss rather than chuck £800 straight at a Ti 456 only to discover it’s not quite what you hoped? (obviously with a bit more mass, and smaller seat/head tube, Hmmm might be a significant drawback there)

Would the Carbon 456 be an option? or even an alternative try out before you decide on the Ti version?

C456 ~ Half the price of a Ti EVO ~200g lighter, would take a slack set if required… There is a C456 Evo on it’s way too apparently…

There are lots of 456 options, and then you start looking at other manufacturers… There are worse dilemmas to have I suppose.

I’ve ended up with ti- a Ragley- because I loved the handling/geo of my Mmmbop but I hated the stiffness, and the Pig didn’t float my boat either. The Ti isn’t exactly super soft, but it takes that edge off. No doubt you could achieve the same with a good steel, or carbon, or alu frame but as it happens, they didn’t so I didn’t either.

Dickyboy – Member

with those tyre sizes & pressures frame material is gonna make nob all difference

What a load of cobblers. Maybe some people wouldn’t notice, but then some people don’t notice when all their pivot bearings seize.

if you splash out on Ti you will more than likely be too worried about stacking it & won’t have so much fun out riding.

Eh, you’re having a laugh, right?

Would it be worth maybe trying out the steel 456 Evo for a short time, with some of the bits you’d like to fit to thr Ti just see if you like the geometry and then flogging that frame on for a minimal financial loss rather than chuck £800 straight at a Ti 456 only to discover it’s not quite what you hoped? (obviously with a bit more mass, and smaller seat/head tube, Hmmm might be a significant drawback there)

This is what I did. Bought a steel 456 and built it up from my FS. After a year bought a 456Ti (Lynskey Mk 2). Four years later its still my only bike and ridden 2-3 per week. Love it.

A long ride for me is 4 hours (that’s a really long ride for me!!!).

You need to get out more.

I bought a Ti hardtail as a ‘bike for life’; broke it, then broke the warranty replacement (then got rid). Manufactured by a quality USA frame maker, not jumped, thrashed or crashed (to be fair it was ridden down hills in a fairly hard kind of way).
Definitely not a bike for life, not a noticeably better ride than the alluminium PACE that I had before it (which I also broke).
Tyre width was also a big issue on the Ti as generally the chain stays are kept circular whereas steel and alloy are flattened for better room/larger tyres.
Personally I now ride steel, quality steel at that.
The extra weight doesn’t seem to matter in normal day to day use.

1) I recently had my steel frame renovated by A Well Known Frame Builder, who’s been building for 35+ years.

I asked about rust protection for the inside, they recommended waxoyl or framesaver.

I asked whether it’s a good idea, or a nice-to-have if you’re a bit paranoid, and whether he bothered with his own frames.

The reply:

No doubt you will be familiar with the saying “Do as I say, not as I do!”

elast density tensile
crmo steel 200 7830 650
6000 t6 alu alloy 69 2700 310
6al4v ti alloy 120 4400 1000

If you divide the elasticity by the density of the three materials, per volume they are all about the same.
You have to use thicker alu than you need for the required tensile strength to overcome the fatigue strength properties, hence a stiff frame.
You need super thin Ti as it is so good in tensile strength/density hence it feels flexy and subject to cracks around welds.

Personally would choose carbon/alu for performance. steel for a life-long frame. Ti just for bling.

Don’t really believe the whole trail buzz absorbtion thing, at least not when you are sat on 2″ air cushions, unless you are running 10 bar!

jono

How about one of these from Winstanley?

Name:
Genesis Latitude Ti 2013 Frame
Colour Options: Titanium
Frame Sizes: 17.5 & 19″

Price: GBP Sterling £599.99, Saving £650.00 (52%) on RRP (£1249.99)

Having said that I love my Ti 456 evo with 140mm forks even if the wheel size is now obsolete!

Been riding my Brodie ti for two years now and previously owned Cotic Soul, Bontrager, and a short spell with a Blur. Ti is an extravagance but I bought mine for the same reasons your looking – easy maintenance, light, rock solid ride and spot-on modern geometry. Ridden dh, marathons, big mountain loops, weekends away, and up to three times a week on local trail rides and it’s just a lovely bike. Build wise fitted dual position Revs, Hope wheels and brakes, and big volume tyres and it just rolls along over pretty much anything. Climbing the lower weight pays off and on the downs the twang of ti is subtle just like a good steel frame. Geometry is key so checking out and comparing the geo of bikes you have had and liked with a comparable ti is critical. Brodie matches well with geo of genesis alpitude, Cotic Bfe etc but is lighter and to me more usable as an only bike.

2) a) ooooh – there are plenty of steel frames that will get more “oooh”s than quite a few ti frames, there’s a lot of overlap in quality, individuality and desirablilty, with top end steel reaching very high into Ti territory.
b) ride quality – as above, all down to the tubing, the design and the builder – very possible to make a right dog out of Ti, and equally possible to make a complete dream out of Steel. In terms of money, the sky’s the limit with Ti and Steel.
c) longevity – see thing on rust. durability – Any bike from any material is designed with an ultimate strength in mind, beyond which it will fail. A stronger material means you need less of it to reach the same strength – again, how strong a frame is depends on what the builder had in mind (assuming he gets the right quality of alloy/ casting/ welding/ heat treating etc.)

3) will you notice – no idea! If you luurrrve it, though, you will go faster!

original 456 was supposed to be great. The new one’s probably a bit better (???) Can you test ride? If you already luuurve it, will you be a dispassionate test rider? Any reviews about? Have they been out long enought that you’d hear about any quality issues?

Oh yes, only thing on maintenance over steel is not having to get it resprayed every 5, 7, ? years if you don’t like it looking tatty.