Ti V 853

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  • Ti V 853
  • Premier Icon twisty
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    There really is not an intrinsic difference in ride between different materials.
    Differences in how they ride are more down to the geometry and design than the materials. i.e it is possible to make a ti bike quite flexy, but it is probably not a good idea to design a Ti bike that flexes all over the place when you are climbing out of the saddle.

    In terms of comfort, etc the difference is insignificant compared to e.g. changing tyre size by 0.2″.

    That said a Ti bike is for life not just for a season, for the extra money you get something slightly lighter, bombproof, and corrosion proof – no paintwork to worry about spoiling etc. These are tangible benefits which can be worth the extra £ especially if you are going to be riding it for 20+years.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    a Ti bike is for life not just for a season

    although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their ‘go to’ bike?

    I think for a road bike the Ti route might be worth it as traditionally technology has changed so slowly but for MTB’s there’s less of an argument for longevity of the frame material being a key selling point.

    Premier Icon twisty
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    although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their ‘go to’ bike?

    Raises hand! Actually I raced by 20 year old v-braked Ti frame bike around a national MTB championship yesterday. I may have crashed half way around the first lap and mangled my arm and knee a bit and finished quite far down the roster – but I got a few astonished looks and nods of approval as I was going round in amongst all the full sus carbon competitors so it was all worth it.

    Get a Ti bike now and it can have disk mounts, if one is looking to buy a hardtail then they obviously want a hardtail rather than a full sus. There is no telling what innovations are going to happen over the next 20 years but there is no reason in particular why it wouldn’t still be a decent hardtail in 20 years time.

    philxx1975
    Member

    Who makes a full 853 frame

    pickle
    Member

    I’m looking at treating myself soon with a new frame and 853 steel or Ti are my HT materials of choice.

    I was wondering if people have ridden both and what the differences are in ride?

    Obviously there’s a massive difference in price but wondered if the ride was that much better on a Ti version of whatever frame?

    Premier Icon genesiscore502011
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    You are one twisty – no one else did. I am a huge Ti fan but my current Ti hardtail is world’s away from my old Ti of 10 years ago let alone 20 – wheel size,boost,tapered,double butted, discs,geometry, internal routing brakes and dropper etc etc

    buckster
    Member

    If you can afford it, look closely at Ti, for me personally, Ti has a fantastic feel to it with a hardtail. Ive ridden steel, alu and Ti. Assuming same geo etc, it will ride differently and I personally love the feel!

    Advances in tube set design has meant that the old adage of harsh aluminium v more feel steel v Ti is diluted somewhat greatly these days but Ti is still a magical HT frame material

    mindmap3
    Member

    If you can afford it, I’d seriously consider the Ti.

    I made the jump to a Ti hardtail last year as my main bike and have loved it. It replaced a steel Switchback and a Banshee Rune. The Switchback was 631 and fairly stiff (30.9mm seat tube, big head tube and bolt through rear end) but I was still happy riding it all day. The Ti version was a fair chunk lighter with quite a lot more ‘spring’ to it; it seemed to dull out a lot of the trail buzz but didn’t feel too flexy when out of the saddle. In many ways it felt a bit like very old school steel frames.

    That Ti was stolen and it has been replaced by the Mk II which feels a bit different and has a bit less feel to it.

    I’ve only had one 853 bike – an old Stanton Slackline which had a 27.2mm seat tube, 135mm rear end and 1 1 /8th head tube. That bike was a revelation compared to the BFe that it replaced in terms of feel, zip and spring. The BFe always felt pretty dead, lifeless and stiff.

    The elephant in the room for Ti is the price. Is my Ti Switchback three times better than the steel one that it replaced? Hmmmmmm. It’s very hard to quantify and comes down to buying one because you want one. It is nicer to ride and at the end of the day, I’ve always wanted one.

    Premier Icon Daffy
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    philxx1975 – Member
    Who makes a full 853 frame

    This is a good point. Most frames which are branded as 853 have only a couple (at most) of tubes.

    Having commuted for over a year on an 853 bike (Genesis Day One Alfine 11) and having swapped it for a an Aluminium Niner RLT, I can honestly say I’ll never buy another steel hardtail. I’ve now got the Niner and a Ti Pickenflick. The pickenflick is undoubtedly comfier, but the Niner is much more responsive.

    Premier Icon kiwijohn
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    although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their ‘go to’ bike?

    I am.

    Weapon of choice, 95 DBR Axis TT. Still seriously fast.

    Dorset_Knob
    Member

    although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their ‘go to’ bike?

    Amazingly, my Tinbred is nearly that old. It’s got disc brakes (Hope) and front suspension (Fox) so I still think of it as modern … and the frame still looks like new, of course.

    As for feel … tricky … I do remember a moment going down a root staircase somewhere on the SDW where it honestly came together and felt like a big spring. It was a good moment, and probably one of the few times when I thought I was consciously aware of the frame material.

    Obvs I can’t comment on all the unconscious ride aspects that may or may not exist, but I can say there is always a sort of luxurious quality to progress on the Tinbred that the Inbred lacks (although that is rigid), and, even when you’re just riding along, you know it’s TITANIUM 8) and those other bikes aren’t.

    Only real problem is no rusty spots appearing, which would give you that excuse to ‘upgrade’.

    Never ridden 853. But I would never have an alu bike, I still think it’s just wrong.

    buckster
    Member

    Im surprised people feel there will be/is no difference. Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference. I can feel it on MTBs and so does every mag review, not once have I seen a ‘steel, Alu, Ti, its all the same’ expose.

    jfb01
    Member

    If 29er hard tails float your boat,go for the Titus Fireline evo Ti.On One are currently selling the frame for £600.So you get the Ti ride (yes there is a difference) & weight for less than the price of an 853 frame.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference

    Singletrack did a blind test. I think ‘not much’ was the conclusion but can’t find the review in the archive (probably my search fu.

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    That said a Ti bike is for life not just for a season, for the extra money you get something slightly lighter, bombproof, and corrosion proof – no paintwork to worry about spoiling etc. These are tangible benefits which can be worth the extra £ especially if you are going to be riding it for 20+years.

    Ti isn’t anything like bomb proof. It’s probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
    It’s also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole personally.

    therevokid
    Member

    Wot Dorset said …. had a selection on on one’s mostly inbreds until
    i got my hands on terrahawk’s old tinbred – love it to bits and with
    the identical geometry and components from a DN6 inbred on it the
    difference is night and day. Didn’t have the 853 one long enough to get
    a feel for it 🙁

    Premier Icon adsh
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    I’d say it’s more a case of selecting the frame with the geo, fit, clearances and fittings you like and then worrying about the material.

    I couldn’t find this off the peg so I got a custom 853/Columbus HT made by Curtis.

    The weight penalty is slightly under 1lb – not an issue. Being brazed it’s more of a repairable prospect. FWIW I wouldn’t take the risk of having custom Ti

    dragon
    Member

    Seems a stupid way to buy a frame, surely the important bits are what do you primarily want it to do e.g. XC, jumps…., then look at what components you are going to ship over to it and then set a budget.

    Also worth bearing in mind the old stereotypes about aluminium being harsh and steel being smoother are no longer true. Modern steel frames that pass CEN can be quite harsh and conversely modern aluminium frames can easily be ridden all day comfortably.

    Dorset_Knob
    Member

    I couldn’t find this off the peg so I got a custom 853/Columbus HT made by Curtis.

    Let’s see it then!

    buckster
    Member

    Singletrack did a blind test. I think ‘not much’ was the conclusion but can’t find the review in the archive (probably my search fu.

    Ill have a look for that, Id like to read it. It is true that modern alloy tubesets are way better than 20 years back. At that time aluminium tube sets made some seriously harsh rides, these days things like triple butted yah yahs make a huge difference to comfort and handling flex. Ditto steel tube sets are light to the point of weight not mattering etc.

    Premier Icon twisty
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    You are one twisty – no one else did. I am a huge Ti fan but my current Ti hardtail is world’s away from my old Ti of 10 years ago let alone 20 – wheel size,boost,tapered,double butted, discs,geometry, internal routing brakes and dropper etc etc

    20 years ago MTBiking was about 20 years old. Things are quite a bit more mature now and likely to change a bit more slowly.
    Also somebody tossing up 853 vs Ti is surely looking for a long term investment. If you want the latest and greatest and plan to replace in a few years then surely it makes much more sense to get a Carbon frame.

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    Ti isn’t anything like bomb proof. It’s probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
    It’s also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole personally.

    Agree 100%

    dragon
    Member

    Aluminium and CF are just as likely to last as well as steel and ti, in fact tehy may last longer. So that’s not a worthwhile argument IMO.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    It’s got so much to do with the construction is the problem.

    I had a Soul (853) and a Soda (Ti). Also had a Ragley Ti. The Soul and Soda were your absolute archetypes, I reckon Cy does that very much on purpose- not all steel frames are springy and lively but he knows people who buy expensive steel want that. And not all ti frames are lightweight and bendy but again, if you’re buying a Soda that’s probably what you’re after.

    (I had an original Bfe too, exact same geometry, IIRC a mix of 853 and 631, but totally different character because of the build)

    Meanwhile the Ragley was totally different from the Soda, it was a lot stiffer- I reckon Brant had gone “Really good bike made of titanium that rides how I want it to” rather than “Bike that rides like STW members think titanium has to ride like”.

    TL;DR: It Depends.

    Premier Icon takisawa2
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    Find a first gen SIR.9 or MCR.9 & respray it.
    Job done.

    Ti…no chance, a crack often renders them scrap.
    Steel…just weld a new bit in.

    I’d never part with my SIR.

    Premier Icon ampthill
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    Im surprised people feel there will be/is no difference. Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference. I can feel it on MTBs and so does every mag review, not once have I seen a ‘steel, Alu, Ti, its all the same’ expose

    you need to read this

    link

    I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can’t remember the issue

    Premier Icon Andy R
    Subscriber

    I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can’t remember the issue

    It was a Charge Duster and Duster Ti – I don’t know which issue though although I do remember reading it.

    Stevet1
    Member

    Ti isn’t anything like bomb proof. It’s probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
    It’s also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole personally.

    You’re probably right. I’ve cracked three ti frames. One has been repaired and it still going, albeit as a gentle xc bike. I had a few steel frames after the ti ones, put off by the failues and yet, after a few years I went back to Ti. Couldn’t resist – the light weight and ride qualities are hard to ignore, once you go Ti it’s very hard to go back. I did have a long conversation with the designer though who assured me that modern Ti frames weren’t the same lightweight xc race bred frames as my earlier ones. Bought my Ti slackline in 2014 and it’s still going strong, and I’ve given in some pretty decent hammer.
    Sounds pretty obvious but the frame design will be as important as the material, get one that’s designed right and it should last as long as the steel version, but over that lifetime be more enjoyable to ride.

    Premier Icon ampthill
    Subscriber

    It was a Charge Duster and Duster Ti – I don’t know which issue though although I do remember reading it.

    got it now issue 34

    Looks like it wasn’t very obvious which was which

    mindmap3
    Member

    Bought my Ti slackline in 2014 and it’s still going strong, and I’ve given in some pretty decent hammer.
    Sounds pretty obvious but the frame design will be as important as the material, get one that’s designed right and it should last as long as the steel version, but over that lifetime be more enjoyable to ride.

    I’m fairly confident in my Stanton frame having seen what some of the lads get up to on theirs.

    Saying that there was a hap on here who killed is Ti Slackline when he stacked it on one of the new rock gardens at Cannock and wrecked a seat stay.

    Premier Icon twisty
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    Ti isn’t anything like bomb proof. It’s probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
    It’s also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole personally.

    Ti is expensive to repair yes and to be fair this is something to consider especially for touring. If the welds are crap then they will crack, or if it is a crappy design with really narrow tubes then it can have problems.
    But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.
    The only real damage on my ti frame is a small scratch from where i crashed my bars into a tree and smashed the brake lever into the top tube (silly me had clamped the brakes on too tight). Pretty sure a lightweight steel frame would’ve had a significant dent from that. What is the thickness of an 853 top tube, 0.5mm?

    buckster
    Member

    you need to read this

    link

    I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can’t remember the issue

    Many thanks. Interesting and bears out much of what I have experienced. I think this sentence is key…

    so the more observant ones would notice speed differences. In the end, we sort of determined that when riders didn’t know what they ‘should’ feel, they really struggled to find differences in stiffness, compliance and weight between frames or wheels.

    I think we have all had guys turn up to club rides on knackers yard bikes and smoke the lot of us. Its essentially the same thing at one extreme and at the other, pros are quick on any bike. Its the same with weight, within reason i.e. a few pounds, you will perform the same on a bike weighing 15lbs as on weighing 20lbs IF the geometry is the same. As well as size etc referenced in the article, humans seem to be trained to think lighterweight = better performance, and this is not necessarily true.

    I argue (badly) that if you learnt to ride fast on a rigid mtb, you will have far more subtle and quicker reactions to terrain than if you learned to ride fast on a full susser. In the former, I reckon you can feel frame types as you naturally look for the traits of the frame to get you along the trail. A full susser has far greater error tolerances and so you subconsciously learn to be crashier in your style. Once you are, riding any rigid bike will feel the same.

    A long time back, ‘scandium’ was the allow of choice for lightweight race bikes. I ordered one from Italy and it tok an age to arrive, so much that the only bike I had to race with was an old Delgado period Pinarello, it weighed loads by even then standards. I raced it for a few months, I got the same average results (top 10), the only issue I had was down tube shifters on descents/getting caught on turns/ascents etc. Some riders are clumsy, some are subtle, some are grinders, some spin, each will look or not giver a damn about their frame type/weight.

    dragon
    Member

    But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.

    Tosh.

    UrbanHiker
    Member

    I suggest anyone interested in frame material read the following….

    http://www.bgcycles.com/new-page-1/

    and although its not 100% on subject, this is a cracking read…

    Thoughts on tapered steerers

    Candodavid
    Member

    Got a 26″ custom 853 Curtis SS and the first 853 29er Curtis made.
    So blooming comfortable for long days out. Wouldn’t sell either of them….. Ever

    duncdan
    Member

    I got rid of my 853 Kona (explosive)in favour of the 4130 version (caldera). 853 is much stiffer and does not give the classic steal ride quality that you get on a 4130 frame. 853 is more like aluminium. My ti 456 however is much nicer than the 4130 version.

    There is potential for steal to be almost as good as ti but it’s dependant on factors in frame building beyond my understanding

    Premier Icon ampthill
    Subscriber

    An 853 bike might be stiffer than a 4130 bike

    But that is tube shape not material

    853 and 4130 have the same stiffness

    PJay
    Member

    I swapped my 853 Pipedream Sirius (which felt a little stiff compared to the 853 Inbred it replaced) with a Pipedream Scion, which felt more comfortable. The difference between the 2 Pipedreams? – 19mm seatstays on the Sirius and 16mm on the Scion.

    The design matters (all 3 bikes would have had 4130 seatstays – 853 tends just to save a little weigh).

    philxx1975
    Member

    It’s probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAH

    Honestly My heart weeps None of my MTB’S ever broke I know another guy who did the barrier bike roofrack thing , not a sausage

    One Lynskey road bike almost snapped looking at it

    Aluminium bikes pfft crack adoodle

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