chainline – what’s with the daft nose down saddle angles?

chainline – what’s with the daft nose down saddle angles?

FIFY

Thanks gee.
can you explain what’s not daft about them to me now please?

Perhaps he just prefers it.

Yes, perhaps. I’m just interested in why tho Ian.

Maybe he runs slightly more sag on his rear suspension than the fork so that it’s level when in use. If you’re riding very steep ups and downs it can make sense as well – you can get further onto the nose for the climbs and the angle’s irrelevant when you’re descending as you’re standing up.

Really four bar suspension rides that much different? Do they ****. My SX trail was the worst bike I’ve ever owned.

That’s a load of balls; just because one Horst link 4-bar rides bad doesn’t mean they all do. Pivot point, linkage differences, coil & air shocks – all make big differences. In fact, the whole thing about linkage actuated frames is that the designer/manufacturer can tune the suspension however they want to.

I’ve had loads of Oranges & a few Nicolai (still have a Blood & a Helius ST); in my opinion they’re both good manufacturers with fantastic geometry bikes. The standard geometry on Nicolai’s is great – I wouldn’t go custom unless you absolutely need something that doesn’t come standard on the frame you choose.

Yes, perhaps. I’m just interested in why tho Ian.

Well it’s clear to me that he has an absolutely massive set of marriage tackle that unless he moves the nose down would be excruciatingly painful.

mildred – Member

That’s a load of balls; just because one Horst link 4-bar rides bad doesn’t mean they all do.

Aye, my SX sucked balls frankly but my Hemlock and my Camber are both FSRs and they ride great (and differently). There’s a lot more going on than the number of bars.

Well it’s clear to me that he has an absolutely massive set of marriage tackle

[quote]That’s a load of balls[/quote] 8)

If you’re riding very steep ups and downs it can make sense as well

😕 –

you can get further onto the nose for the climbs

No you can’t!

and the angle’s irrelevant when you’re descending as you’re standing up.

No it isn’t! there’s a very good reason why almost every DH bike’s saddle is angled nose up?

Huge tackle seems the only sensible answer so far

I was after a Nicolai last year, an AC though. After looking at the weight for the price, I decided on a carbon frame instead (Mojo HD).
I’m not saying that might be the right bike for you, but get an idea on heavy you want your build to be…I’ve been riding with someone this weekend on a lovely AM, Cane Creek shock and Fox Vans. It weighed 37.5lbs and that was with wheels that weren’t heavy and trail tyres. My HD is 28lbs with the same tyres and wheels that would only be 100g lighter. Admittedly, mine has air suspension and a 32mm fork. If I added a coil, bigger fork, chain device and a stronger handlebar. How much extra weight would I add? 3lbs? I’d only use a bike that weighed more than, lets say 32lbs, if I was using uplifts or riding World Cup DH tracks!

EDIT: Have you looked at a SC Nomad Carbon? More small bump compliance (over DW link) and very light for its capabilites. I went for the HD instead so I could change the travel.

Yeah a carbon nomad was on the list actually!

And yeah, I’m wondering whether carbon would be the best option. I’ve always been a fan of carbon technology since being into cars, and now have carbon bars and cranks do maybe a frame would be a good enduro choice. That was one attraction of the spicy 916 to be fair.

Mojo HD owner here.

Can highly recommend one, climbs brilliantly, descends brilliantly (although maybe not as good as something that sacrificed uphill ability for more downhill ability), very versatile and tough with great backup from the manufacturer if there are any problems.

Mine is my only bike, so is used for short rides in the local park, through to 30 mile long cross country through to trips to spain etc. It has fox 36’s , large ish tyres(hans dampf), downhill tube in the rear, rockshox reverb post, 2 x9 drivetrain, flat pedals, weighs in around ~30lb. I might change the rear shock to a CCDB air or vivid but not sure I want to spend the cash.

Upsides : light’ish, strong, versatile (can be built light for XC or with more of a downhill bias with coil springs etc), great uphill , great downhill

Downsides : poor small bump compliance, quite difficult to get the suspension setup ‘just right’ but once you’ve found the sweetspot, its pretty good.

Downsides : poor small bump compliance, quite difficult to get the suspension setup ‘just right’ but once you’ve found the sweetspot, its pretty good.

You see, this is it for me… I actually think this is a very honest opinion, and one that is echoed throughout t’interweb.

But the thing is, I don’t want “pretty good”, I want spot on..!

Now, I’m not so naive to think that either of my bike is perfect, indeed they’re far from it – the Blood is initially a falling rate design then suddenly turning to a steep rising rate, which means its a bastard to get setup perfectly. Havin said that it’s simply the most fun bike I’ve ever ridden – it begs to be ‘popped’ off everything. Whereas I was quicker DH on both my Last and Commie, than I am on my Nic, but it feels ‘just right’ and I love the looks (to be honest the commencal supreme DH v2 was incredibly fast).

The nice thing about Nicolais are that they’re so easy to get a great setup. Very neutral (I think this was said earlier), with brill geometry, & coupled with the sheer bling build quality, makes them a very special buy. All my opinion of course.

I’ve ridden geetees bike a few times and can honestly tell you its a great ride. So much so that I bought am AM off the back of riding his! If you came down to the SE I’d try to join you for a ride with him so you could try a bike with the new geometry. TBH you could do an awful lot worse than having his frame off him (assuming the paint work was up your strasse!)

mine:

I was wondwering how the CC rides compared to the AC? In the market for one or the other but can’t get a test ride.

The CC is possibly the most underrated/overlooked bike in the Nic range, which is odd given that they’re very comparable to the Orange 5. I’ve owned a sub-5, 2006 incarnation & 2011 5, and a Helius CC. In terms of ride the CC was closest to the 2006 5 but far stiffer.

Loads of fun and very difficult to upset. The AC is meant to be more of the same with a slightly lower BB. I haven’t ridden the AC but it would definitely be on my ‘next bike’ list of the Blood broke.

The last herb 160 looks a good option if you want German engineering

I own a Mega and love it but if I was rich I’d buy a Nicolai, or a Rocket 🙂

i had a nicolai helius AM.

now have a nicolai helius AC 29er and it’s truly BRILLIANT !

incomparable difference for trail riding. the AM would suit you if you lived in the Alps / Vosges / Eifel mountains.

the AC will suit you if you live in the UK…….

IMAG0330 by the_lecht_rocks, on Flickr

Have you considered the Transition Covert? Especially the new carbon version about to arrive. I bought a Five having tested both, why? because the Five made a better all round package for climbing and XC. But I absolutely loved the Covert it descends beautifully. Definately the next stop along the Enduro route from your Five.

Very pretty as well…

Covert carbon

The mojo HD frame is 1lb lighter than the AM so anything more than that in built bikes is down to the build not the frame. My AM is 29lbs and that includes dropper post and a proper 160mm fork. If I put a 32mm fork on (which I have done in the past although it doesn’t suit the bike at all) I could drop almost another pound.

The AM frame though is not light. Without shock it’s 3.1kg making it pretty hefty by modern standards but its also very stiff and very durable. That’s a key reason to go for a Nic. The AC would suit most people in the UK I think (I’m very heavy which is why I chose fhe AM but I only run it in the shorter travel guises).

There’s something not quite right about the Mojo IMO. I’ve tried my mates extensively and can’t get it to feel right. I’m putting it down to the super short wheel base which I reckon compromises it on the downs too much. It rides like a super fast incredibly stiff trail bike rather than a balls out all mounting bike capable of riding DH tracks as well.

GW I agree that that saddle set up is very far from what I would have. I just felt the question would have been better out without the value judgement of it being described as ‘daft’. that’s how arguments start after all. I’d like to add though that having read other comments youve posted you clearly know what you’re talking about with bikes. All the more reason then to use your knowledge wisely.

Damn this thread has made me want ANOTHER Nicolai (it would be my 7th)

Yeah I was looking at frame weights, think there’s 400grams between a carbon nomad and an AM once shock is included. That sort of weight I could live with for the right frame.
It’s the base of a bike afterall.

Unsure on weight of the spicy full carbon frame, I imagine that to be lower than a nomad, was just seeing what stats I could actually find. I think a 160mm bike would be a must after the five otherwise probably no point in a change.

Yeah I was looking at frame weights, think there’s 400grams between a carbon nomad and an AM once shock is included. That sort of weight I could live with for the right frame.
It’s the base of a bike afterall.

Think you might need to check that – Nomad C with shock (RP23) is ~6lbs (or 2.75kg).

Like for like, its a good 700g difference with shock.

That’s a fair chunk before you even start.

I think he’s right actually. SC Nomad, in Medium is 2.78kg with an RP23, which itself is about 300g, so yes the bare weight of the Nomad frame is about 2.48kg, ~600g lighter than the AM.

I’ve tried the Nomad a few times and it’s brilliant. So so stiff (stiffer than my AM) and works really well over square edge hits. It’s a much better bike than the Mojo in my view, but the Mojo does have the option of running as a 140mm bike that the Nomad can’t offer.

The Mojo HD is a bit heavier than the Nomad (I think it’s something like 200g or so); but in 140mm guise, you can run a lighter fork so net net net, you can get a Mojo built as light as a Nomad if you want.

I thought long and hard about whether to go for a Carbon Nomad or a custom Nic and in the end it came down to the fact that I can get the AM to fit me perfectly. The BB is quite high for my taste on the Nomad and I’m between sizes.

The wordy resposes on this thread from the Nicolai owners show you what kind of folk they tend to be 🙄

I am Helius AM owner so here is my wordy response 😆

“Enduro” is one of the new buzzwords we all have to live with… a couple of years ago it was “All Mountain”, and before that it was “Freeride”… all the while it’s pretty much been the same kind of travel that the bikes have, but they have been getting lighter and more “trail friendly” as we move away from the pure “Downhill” bikes on which they were originally based (after we all broke our XC bikes with our rad riding… all IMHO etc).

The Helius AM is (to me) still a proper “All Mountain” bike in that it is designed for the long days in the mountains which include proper long doonhall trails; a bit more winch and drop than all round trail friendly; hence it carries a little more weight and has more DH angles than some more modern “Enduro” type frames. This suits me but might not suit others.

I’ve had mine up quite a few mountains as I’m lucky enough to live near some, but I’ve also had it round the local forests and Glentress/Inners etc. For trail centre’s and forests it’s a bit of a steamroller to crack an egg but it’s still damn good fun… but let it loose on a proper doonhall trail (and if you’ve got the skillz) the bike will not be an excuse. I took mine to the USA last year and rode an XC event in the desert one day, shuttled it and chased fully stormtrooper’d up locals down serious gnar on another, and rode it up a 10,000ft peak the next… a true all-rounder.

I’ve had mine set up everywhere from 30lbs trail mode to 35lbs for the Macavalanche; which is one of the great things about how versatile these frames are. Run an air shock and short travel setting at the back for more sedate stuff, and bung on a coil and big tyres to steamroller the gnar… or just leave it in either mode and just ride it. I’ve not tried a 150mm 32mm stantioned fork on it as I find them too flexy for my liking, but the latest generation of 34mm forks (Fox 34 and Deville) would be a way to drop a little weight from the 35/36 stantioned forks I’ve tried.

I’m currently running it at about 35lbs with a CCDB and Marz 55 RC3Ti forks for everything as I can hustle it along just fine (I’m not racing and I currently have no carbon on it)… but I am really enjoying the big long descents and the extra “feel” I get with the coil vs air shock options. If I was racing enduro or just riding more XC trails it would be stripped down and running the air shocks… and I would probably want a lighter more “trail” oriented frame (and some carbon natch 😉 ).

I break stuff and I’m a bit of a carbon-o-phobe from previous experience. I’ve been riding Nicolai’s for about eight years now and I’ve not managed to break one and that’s reason enough for me to be very happy to be riding one. Mine is two years old now and I’ve tightened the bushings but that is all… how many bearings in a nomad in that time?

A Helius AM is much more like an Alpine/Patriot than a Five, but I think the Nicolai is a bit more versatile because of the travel options; but it’s still probably too much bike if all it’s going to see is trail riding. For enduro racing in the UK you’ll be after something lighter and more trail friendly (IMHO). For the Mega (and Euro Enduro racing) and “all mountain” riding where there are proper mountains then they are probably up there as one of the best tools for the job (unless your aiming for a podium and hence have the skillz to rag a less suitable bike through the terrain 😈 ).

PS… I’d love to try one of those Helius AC frames with or without waggon wheels. I don’t think I’d change my AM for one as when I’m riding tamer trails and forests I like to ride a hardtail, but it would be fun to try one… and perhaps I need to look at carbon again 😳 .

Enjoy!

flibrose – Member

The last herb 160 looks a good option if you want German engineering

Heavy, though… The 160 and the 180 are the same frame with just a different rocker so the 160’s pretty overbuilt. I love my Herb DH but not sure I’d go for a 160.

Heavy, though…

Good point, I meant to mention this. I spoke with them when I was still working out what I was going to go for.

The Herb AM weighs 4.7lbs with shock, as Northwind says, this is both for the 160mm and 180mm version.

The 160 and the 180 FR are the same frame with just a different rocker so the 160’s pretty overbuilt

That’s not the crazy part though. The crazy part is that it’s still the same frame as when it was positioned as a 145mm trail bike 😯

Last realised that there was little point in having a bike weigh that much and not carry the travel hence they repositioned it as a 160/180mm bike!

The Herb AM weighs 4.7lbs with shock

?????? Might want to double check that weight!!!!

8.3lbs without shock and hardware, and with the lightest dropouts, apparently. You probably won’t break it though.

?????? Might want to double check that weight!!!!

Er yes, I mean kilos 😯

Unless the guy mailing me from Last made a mistake (which he might well of done) the weight is more than 8.3lbs.

However, he said 4.7kg. If he’d meant 3.7kg then the 8.3lbs figure is right.

I think a 160mm bike would be a must after the five otherwise probably no point in a change.

If I was you I’d just build the 5 up with whatever ‘hardcore’ bits you think you’d need – maybe add a pair of spaced down 160mm forks. If you still aren’t happy, then go buy another frame.

But based upon seeing a 5 win (seniors, anyway) the recent Innerleithen Euro-DH round – who needs more?

Gary would have won Senior on pretty much any bike.

Ah yeah,
2.75kg nomad carbon with shock

Nicolai am with vivid is 3.28kg according to their site, so that’s 500grams?

I know it’s still a big amount to save on a frame.

You have to try riding one mate.

It’s a long way to come, but there is also a local SC dealer down here aswell. I know them very well (Pedal & Spoke) so if you traveled to this neck of the woods, you could likely try the SC Nomad as well as a Helius. Like any bike shop, you’d get charged for trying the Nomad.

Would be happy to help arrange.

Brilliant. I definately will sort something out for trying them, it’s still a while off but I want to at least get a short list of bikes.

Going to try a coil shocked five as well, just to see what that could give me.

Thanks for all the info and replies!

Worth a crack with a coil. I stuck an old Rocco coil I bought from here in place of the monarch on the mega, just as a try out on the cheap to see how big a difference it made.

OMG! It’s amazingly different! Plush, linear and handles serious stuff waaaaayyyy better the the monarch. Deffo worth a crack. Unfortunately, makes my previously lovely talas 180mm RC2s seem not very responsive at all. Oh dear, the cycle continues…. 😀

My Ac, 30lb trail shredder.

I’ve had my Helius FR for over 4 years now. During the past 12 months I’ve toyed with the idea of a replacement, itchy feet and all that, but I have yet to try a bike that has felt measurably better to ride. Some were noticeably lighter (I will happily admit that there has been the odd occasion I wished I was carrying a lighter bike up the side of a mountain) but overall I’m quite happy to put up with the extra weight for the fun I get on the way down. 32lbs is the lightest I’ve managed to get the FR without spending huge amounts of cash, or compromising it’s ability too much (36 Floats and an air can at the back, Flows with light-ish big volume tyres and full XT drive train), but at the moment it is around 34.5lbs with 36 Vans and a CCDB with ti spring….the coil set up is pretty sweet and worth the extra weight…. IMHO etc etc. I have finally given up my search for a suitable replacement for the FR, so instead I’ve bought a new 140mm travel Nicolai 29er to run alongside it. The demo bike felt fantastically capable over the same terrain I take the FR, so although I haven’t bought it as a direct replacement I’m looking forward to seeing just how capable it is.