Viewing 37 posts - 41 through 77 (of 77 total)
  • Those of you more eloquent than me – 20mph content
  • Premier Icon Duggan
    Free Member

    I’m not sure if they’re “advisory” but they are deliberately and entirely self-policed according to the instructor on my speed-awareness course* a few years ago.

    *86mph on the M56 if you must know

    Premier Icon TheBrick
    Free Member

    The problem is that these long 20 mph zones, in which for the vast majority of the time 20 mph feels to slow to drivers and there is no obvious risk (not the same as there being no risk!), simply re-enforce the “it’s ok to break the speed limit” mantra in drivers heads. They did 30 through here last time, and the time before that, and didn’t have an accident so it’s fine to do it again. Accidents are so rare that the fundamental “normalisation of deviance” factor overides everything.

    I think this is a valid points. I think there should be many more 20mph zones but short stretches. Drive though France and most village centres are 30kph the upping to 50kph the 70kph.

    I think we could do better but tent to just do extended 20/30/40 mph zones far beyond the risk areas or step ups from 30 straight to 50/60 without a 40mph buffer

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Full Member

    I think as a cyclist you end up much more aware of what’s going on around you.

    In a lot of urban environments there’s tons of stuff going on – pedestrians, dogs, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings.

    Cycling at 20mph that’s not a problem. I can take it all in.

    Driving at 30mph I’m left with a choice between ignoring it and assuming it will be fine, or trying to process all this stuff.

    I suspect a lot of drivers, who are not also cyclists, tend to take the first option and just filter out lots of stuff at 30mph. That works most of the time, but occasionally a pedestrian or a cyclist pays the price of your inability to actually process everything at that speed.

    Premier Icon bigyan
    Free Member

    *breathes deeply and slowly*

    I think I’m giving fb a rest.

    I just go on facebook to look at friends pictures, funny pictures and skip the rest.

    Arguing with people on facebook is an exercise in futility. It is very unlikely to be a reasoned debate where people are open to other ideas.

    Thought 20 was unenforceable and was only an advisory limit? or has that changed now in my absence?

    It is legal, however the Police Forces guidance on enforcement of 20 mph limits can be a bit variable.

    Premier Icon tomd
    Full Member

    Luxemburg (don’t know if it’s done elsewhere) has a neat solution to this in suburban areas.

    They have markings on the road that give priority to side streets and accesses off the main road. Say in Dunblane, rather than a blanket 20mpg they would have 50kmh but you could have to give way to any and all side streets on your way through.

    It neatly solves the problem because you can’t just barrel through at 40mph half oblivious. Driving through the built up area requires a state of cat like readiness and really going any faster than 20mph is a bit of gamble.

    Premier Icon fooman
    Free Member

    20 is the legal limit – round red circle indicates that – so could be enforced. Not strictly enforced at the moment obviously leads people to think it’s optional… but I’d consider it more a transition period. Habitual speeding to get to the next traffic queue sooner seems to be what a lot of people want to do, in urban areas at least speeding is an ego ‘I know better’ thing than any real time benefit.

    Premier Icon ginsterdrz
    Free Member

    I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the 20mph limits ARE NOT ENFORCEABLE in most areas. Contact your local authority. I know LCC did not provide the local legislation to enforce the 20mph limit (might have changed more recently?) on a cost basis.

    It’s the ‘mindset of the few’ idea in that if the signs convince a few people to drive at or nearer 20, average speed does reduce slightly.

    The ONLY viable way to enforce 20mph (or any limit) is electronic limiting which the UK would never accept or vote for.

    Premier Icon chrismac
    Full Member

    I bet many of those who lobbied for the lower speed limits are the same ones who abandon their 4×4 all over the place to drop little Tommy off at school. I’m all for appropriate and considered speed limits but often they seem to be reduced for absolutely no reason. Round here many have been changed from national speed limits down to 40. They are not accident black spots and nothing on the roads has changed in 30 years beyond the introduction of speed cameras. It’s hard to take the claims of road safety reason seriously when this is the back drop.

    We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time. You could tell they were locals as many were joining and leaving the main road onto residential streets

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    It neatly solves the problem because you can’t just barrel through at 40mph half oblivious. Driving through the built up area requires a state of cat like readiness and really going any faster than 20mph is a bit of gamble.

    Except so many won’t do that – see the person in Dunblane overtaking outside a school just before 9am, se the chap arguing with me that speed is not an issue in any accident. They will barrel through, they will crank up the stereo, the heater, the phone pinging messages, they will not be aware and then a kid steps out while they are doing 40mph…..

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    The problem is that these long 20 mph zones, in which for the vast majority of the time 20 mph feels to slow to drivers and there is no obvious risk (not the same as there being no risk!), simply re-enforce the “it’s ok to break the speed limit” mantra in drivers heads.

    Agreed, but the issue is so many drivers are unaware of the risks that they just carry on. The road in question has the school, doctors and supermarket within perhaps 600m. However, go 600m the other way and at the start and end of the day there is a line of pupils crossing the road to get to primary and high school, plus national cycle route, plus blind corner (when doing more than 30mph). Unless you stand and watch the game of road crossing in a morning with the oblivious drivers and 20 kids, you have no idea of the risks…

    Premier Icon rakas
    Free Member

    Hi-Viz jacket and a hairdryer has a good effect.

    Premier Icon tonyd
    Free Member

    Never argue with an idiot. You’ll never convince the idiot that you’re correct, and bystanders won’t be able to tell who’s who

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Frustration at not being able to murder morons leads to more accidents. We’ll be saving lives in the long run…

    I think this idea has some merit

    Premier Icon adamthekiwi
    Full Member

    I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the 20mph limits ARE NOT ENFORCEABLE in most areas. Contact your local authority. I know LCC did not provide the local legislation to enforce the 20mph limit (might have changed more recently?) on a cost basis.

    This is flat wrong – the The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (Amendment) Order 1999 (so, not *that* recent) defines 20mph limits; these are enforceable by law and councils no longer need to seek approval from the appropriate Secretary of State.

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time. You could tell they were locals as many were joining and leaving the main road onto

    Really? All the time?
    We’ve been living here for nine months now and that’s not happened to us once.
    I’ve had a couple of tailgaters but a lot less than I used to get back in the Midlands.
    It makes it so much nicer to ride a bike on the roads so I’m all for it.
    Can’t say it takes me any longer to get anywhere in real terms than if the 20s were 30s.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    The unenforceable limits are the green ringed ‘twenty’s plenty’ zones, anything with a red border is enforceable.

    I agree with @maxtorque as well, the 20 zone in Stirling from town to Bridge of Allan (next to the railway) is tedious in the extreme. Its a long, wide clear road that has no real need for such a limit. For @nobeerinthefridge think East Road.

    That said, I’d happily make Largs a blanket 20 and probably Dunblane for that matter. Both have tiny roads off of the main drag and in Largs’ case thats self limiting through town as well.

    Personally I feel 20 is fine for smaller residential roads or even the German system where peds have priority. Bigger arterial roads are fine at 30 as long as they have safe crossings. But it needs to be enforced or it’s no good.

    Premier Icon fazzini
    Full Member

    Got overtaken this morning in my village (sounds quaint, but it ain’t :)) with much gesticulating from the overtaker too. Why? I must have delayed them by 5 seconds. Oh, and don’t get me started on the mini roundabout in the village that the *******s ignore in all directions.

    Premier Icon H1ghland3r
    Free Member

    Borders resident here as well and contrary to what most are saying here, I’m starting to see the 20mph limits having an effect.  When first put in place they were almost universally ignored but we are almost a year in now I think and the majority has definitely started to shift, from my observations there seem to be almost a majority now who are closer to 20 than 30 a lot of the time.  As pointed out on this thread it’s a big change to the mindset for a lot of people as on some roads 20 feels like you are crawling along but time seems to be having the desired effect.

    I’m another one who took delight these last months of seeing a queue of irate drivers build up behind me at 20.. doesn’t happen nearly so much now and even those who would clearly like to be going faster seem to be more resigned to it these days. Could be like other major changes to peoples normal routine, I’m just about old enough to remember how up in arms all the grownups were when seatbelts became mandatory, you’d struggle to find anyone nowadays who doesn’t pull a seatbelt on without even thinking about it.

    Premier Icon jkomo
    Full Member

    I’m 50/50 on this issue. I’d like a 20mph speed limit in my village, but would prefer to have none from my village to where I work. I think that’s a fair balance.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    @squirrelking interesting example mate, because it’s a long straight road, and it’s not particularly wide, it’s awful for folk squeezing past, and the street furniture means overtake then cut back in quick type affairs.

    If it was a 20, there would be far less of this IMO. And a couple of cameras too, sorted.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    I must be misremembering it, don’t remember any street furniture barring a couple of islands. Not so much interesting as just plain bad. TBF I’ve driven it a handful of times in the last 10 years, I remember when it was a 40 or 50 limit though.

    In any case, my point was more that the width made it feel really slow and it was more of sticking plaster rather than a proper infrastructure solution where dedicated bike lanes would have made sense.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I do agree, I know we all have the tendency to rightly protect our rights to road use, but on some occasions, a dedicated cycleway would be so much better.

    Though I get shouted at regularly for daring to bike along Troon front on the road, which I do because the shared use path is polluted wi clueless dug walkers.

    Premier Icon tomd
    Full Member

    Except so many won’t do that – see the person in Dunblane overtaking outside a school just before 9am, se the chap arguing with me that speed is not an issue in any accident

    Maybe I’ve not explained the Luxembourg approach very well – the priorities are reversed between main roads and side roads so you can speed if you want but you will crash and it will be 100% your fault. It’s not asking people to go 20 but making them give way along the town high street such that going more than 20 is a gamble. Even if the road is clear a car can and will pull directly on the road from any side street at any time. If you hit them you get done for Luxembourgish careless driving.

    Also quite like the German shared space thing. Used to drive there quite a bit for work. There’s just a sign and the start and end, no road markings and you need to give way to pedestrians. Non compliance is not tolerated and if you hit anyone you’re 100% at fault.

    Premier Icon gowerboy
    Full Member

    I think Wales is considering dropping all 30 zones to a blanket 20mph limit.

    I think it’s a brilliant idea and responded to the consultation to say so. I guess there will be a get out that allows higher speeds for areas where the 20mph presumption is deemed too slow and that may water the whole thing down. I hope they don’t chicken out and get it implemented soon.

    I know it seems slow when driving – but it’s not about me the driver who is just momentarily passing through someone else’s street, it’s about everyone else who has to put up with the impact of me driving down their road. Incidentally, I find sticking to 20mph easier in an electric or automatic car.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    the shared use path is polluted wi clueless dug walkers.

    Same in Largs, at least Troon has a wall (maybe not on Ballast Bank but you can ride over the top) to stop you falling off the path.

    Also quite like the German shared space thing. Used to drive there quite a bit for work. There’s just a sign and the start and end, no road markings and you need to give way to pedestrians. Non compliance is not tolerated and if you hit anyone you’re 100% at fault.

    I was going to quote that but couldn’t quite remember the details. Brilliant idea.

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Full Member

    I was driving through Cambridge today (I had to pick some stuff up too heavy to carry on a bike) and saw someone *yet again* try to turn left into the Guided Busway.

    Car drivers do this on a regular basis, despite the blizzard of NO ENTRY THIS MEANS YOU DUMBASS signs.

    If you think car drivers are paying attention, you’re just plain wrong. 20mph is quite fast enough.

    Premier Icon ibnchris
    Full Member

    I have a 20mph near me and at least once a week I get some twunt flashing me and then speeding past as soon as it opens up to 2 lanes.

    I hooted once and the guy then pulled over and got out thinking I was worked up enough to ‘have a chat’. Hooting is about as aggressive as I can manage so I just cruised on by and thankfully he didn’t follow me…

    Premier Icon Clover
    Full Member

    Love the 20 mph through Peebles. The high street is way more chilled and drivers seem to have grasped that there’s no point dashing and stop for pedestrians even between crossings. I go up there a few times a year and it feels like they’ve changed the driver / pedestrian cyclist balance for the better each trip.

    Where people are arguing that roads are wide and don’t seem dangerous enough to merit a low speed limit there’s another approach. I live on a wide 30mph road and am shocked at how fast people drive, the noise and the dangerous overtakes. Basically the road layout should change so that it’s visually easier to keep to the speed limit rather than giving up on the speed limit. Cycle lanes could easily make it all look more like a road you shouldn’t be barrelling along at 40mph and above. This is a win win. More people think it’s safe enough to cycle, plus fewer car drivers driving more slowly. Much nicer place.

    Premier Icon didnthurt
    Full Member

    So many people think that their journey is more important than anybody elses.

    Also I’m convinced that a fair few drivers drive purely by feel and never (unless spying a speed camera/police car) look at their speedo.
    Plenty drive 40 mph, everywhere…..

    Another thing I think as well is, that plenty of people are driving with poor eyesight. When it’s dark, I see plenty of people driving well below the speed limit on dark country roads (often with full beam on) then speed up when they come to a well lit town.

    Plenty of s##t driving and drivers about.

    Premier Icon didnthurt
    Full Member

    I got a driver attempt to over take me on Peebles high street last week. I was cycling at the speed of the traffic in front whilst being approx. 1.5m from the curb. She drove -very closely- along side me for about 100m. I was shouting at her to pull back as the road was narrowing. She didn’t even look my way.

    People driving cars don’t seem to understand that people on bicycles can travel at 20mph +

    Premier Icon didnthurt
    Full Member

    Another thing I think should be added to 20mph zones is a gradual decrease in speed limits. 60 to 40 then to 20. 60 straight to 20 makes 20 feel really slow, so people speed.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Where people are arguing that roads are wide and don’t seem dangerous enough to merit a low speed limit there’s another approach. I live on a wide 30mph road and am shocked at how fast people drive, the noise and the dangerous overtakes. Basically the road layout should change so that it’s visually easier to keep to the speed limit rather than giving up on the speed limit. Cycle lanes could easily make it all look more like a road you shouldn’t be barrelling along at 40mph and above. This is a win win. More people think it’s safe enough to cycle, plus fewer car drivers driving more slowly. Much nicer place.

    Yup, totally agree. Either put bike lanes in or extend the pavement with enforcement for folk who think that means it’s a parking place.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Full Member

    If the roads were an industrial site, there’s no way they would allow traffic at even 20mph with vulnerable humans in the mix.

    I’m all for the 20mph limit. I’d like to see it even lower e.g. 15mph. Most of our inner city and town roads were built at a time when pedestrian were common on the road and the fastest thing was a bicycle.

    It’s ludicrous that car drivers think it’s safe to go fast on those sorts of roads.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Full Member

    We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time.

    I live in the Borders and have never been over taken whilst driving at the new limit. Not once. I think you are bending your version of the truth.

    Premier Icon neilthewheel
    Full Member

    We were on the Gower peninsula in the spring, there were no roads with a speed limit above 40mph. Even the M4 at Swansea is limited to 50, for air quality reasons. It was excellent for cyclists (not the motorway, obv.)

    Premier Icon andrewh
    Free Member

    We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time.

    I live in the Borders and have never been over taken whilst driving at the new limit. Not once. I think you are bending your version of the truth.

    I wouldn’t say ‘all the time but I’ve had half a dozen overtake while I’ve been driving at 20. I now straddle the line if I see someone attempting it.
    .
    Interestingly drivers seem much happier to sit behind a car doing 20mph than behind a bike doing 20mph. Very much an attitude of ‘a bike!I must overtake!’
    And it’s not just that bikes are easier to overtake I don’t think, often they will overtake me as I’m doing 20mph on a bike and then slow down to do 20 too once they’re passed

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Also I’m convinced that a fair few drivers drive purely by feel and never (unless spying a speed camera/police car) look at their speedo.

    I agree except that it seems a great many don’t even look at their speedo when they do see a speed camera. Everyone just brakes, which is why the traffic slows to 30mph at the local well-known cam, despite it being in a 40 limit.

    On the speed awareness course I went on* quite a few people protested ‘yeah well no-one looks at their speedo do they?’

    * long story, not entirely my fault…

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