Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 77 total)
  • Those of you more eloquent than me – 20mph content
  • Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    We’ve new 20mph zones in Dunblane. We’ve some drivers now overtaking those doing 20mph.

    One route is busier artery route, but has school on it and multiple crossing points to other school, shops, doctor etc. This morning someone overtook outside the school, just before 9am.

    I’ve one chap arguing on Facebook (I know) that because drivers ignore the 20mph, we should revert to 30mph…and that frustration leads to more accidents.

    Apart from ‘away and boil your head’, h<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>ow do I highlight his stupidity and put him back in his box…?</span>

    Or am I arguing with stupidity…

    Premier Icon willard
    Full Member

    You are arguing with stupidity, sorry.

    20mph zones outside things like schools are a very good thing to, well, save the lives of small, easily distracted and mobile kids. If people overtake in those zones, maybe plod would like to spend some time there with a speed gun.

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Full Member

    Don’t bother arguing with him. Assuming he’s local you should go to his house and murder him.

    If people just ignore the laws against murder we should get rid of them. Frustration at not being able to murder morons leads to more accidents. We’ll be saving lives in the long run…

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    arguing on Facebook

    Premier Icon i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    I think there were some stats a while ago that >80% of drivers speed in 20 mph zone.

    I live on a 20 mph road, for example, and I’d say that most drivers are speeding. Many do 40, 50 mph at least when it’s relatively empty. I’d like to sort them out with an RPG 😀

    Premier Icon a11y
    Full Member

    Not worth it Matt, but if you find out where he lives I’ll bring the hammer if you bring the frozen sausages.

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    When somebody asks a question, and is interested in listening, you can argue with them. In this case he’s trying to justify unreasonable behavior, and backing down would mean admitting that to himself, so he won’t. There’s no point trying.

    I suppose you could try “if frustration leads to accidents, relax and stop being frustrated – and that’s what I’m going to do now, as there’s no point arguing with you”.

    Premier Icon jonnyrobertson
    Full Member

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    *breathes deeply and slowly*

    I think I’m giving fb a rest.

    Premier Icon soundninjauk
    Full Member

    An excellent decision.

    Premier Icon amatuer
    Full Member

    If he thinks breaking the speed limit isn’t a serious crime, then what other laws are within his ability to pick and choose from?

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    Perhaps your school and the police could get together on an awareness campaign. At our primary it went down well:

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/children-speed-cameras-pull-over-mayor-1943595

    Premier Icon poah
    Free Member

    Have the police not been doing checks as its a new change?

    Premier Icon slowol
    Free Member

    The only way to improve it is to note down every time it happens and keep sending your log to your local councillors and or the police. If no one highlights the problem then they can pretend the problem isn’t there.

    As for the Dino’s on local groups sometimes life is too short to argue. If the police know about the problem then they should (not guaranteed) make some attempt to sort it. Magistrate handing down a few fines often helps get the message through.

    Premier Icon stwhannah
    Full Member

    How long is the section of road? How many more minutes would it take driving at 20mph instead of 30mph? I imagine very few. But then:

    If you hit a pedestrian:

    • at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
    • at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
    • at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
    • at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.

    How does that tiny time saving look now?

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Have the police not been doing checks as its a new change?

    Seems that all of Stirling, BofA, Dunblane, Callander and surrounding villages have been swapped over to 20mph over the last 6 months or so. Middle_oab and driving instructor drove same road about 15 minutes apart – and they had changed the limit!

    I think it’s great. Odd when driving at first, I just now take an Ogmios approach to getting everywhere now. It’s brilliant on a bike, as I’m nearly the same speed a lot of the time.

    It will take time to settle in and people get used to it.

    Not seen any police out though.

    Premier Icon maxtorque
    Full Member

    Blank 20 mph zones simply don’t work imo.

    As a driver you drive via two things

    1) experience (ie last time i drove down this road i didn’t crash, so this speed is fine)

    2) Your eyes – you can have as many dumb 20 mph signs as you like, but in a modern car, on an empty road, 20 mph is slow and feels even slower

    The problem is that these long 20 mph zones, in which for the vast majority of the time 20 mph feels to slow to drivers and there is no obvious risk (not the same as there being no risk!), simply re-enforce the “it’s ok to break the speed limit” mantra in drivers heads. They did 30 through here last time, and the time before that, and didn’t have an accident so it’s fine to do it again. Accidents are so rare that the fundamental “normalisation of deviance” factor overides everything.

    You can’t convince anyone that it’s not fine to speed because, mostly they speed all the time and don’t crash!

    What we need, imo are as follows:

    1) limited and very target use of the lower limit, directly at the point of highest risk (ie outside a school

    2) smart signs that apply limits when needed and not when not (ie at 3am the limit is 30 not 20, because no-one is around!

    3) Proper fines and penalties where the driver cannot avoid or mis-understand their specific responsibility

    Just blanketing everything at 20 is the “easy way out” for councils. They can stick so signs up, absolve themselves from responsibility and just blame “irresponsible drivers”

    But the fact is, all drivers are irresponsible. When out estate (which is a stupid and completely ignored 20 mph zone) carried out a speed check because residents complained about speeding, something like 98% of the people caught speeding were, der, residents of the estate……

    Premier Icon redthunder
    Free Member

    I’m on 20 road now. But many still ignore it. South Glos seem to hope they can solve all problems with more white paint and a couple of speed cushions.

    Chincanes are the way forward and RPG’s.

    I enjoy a 20 and a healthy que of hotheads behind getting ever more enraged.

    If they pass be Ogmios way of Zen.

    Premier Icon tuboflard
    Full Member

    I’d love to see mandatory 20mph zones outside every school, rigidly enforced by the police. I remember when I lived in Canada for a while the wrath you’d get for overtaking a school bus picking up and setting down, basically a you’d get arrested and the same for speeding too (was 20mph from memory).

    Always stuck to it myself but was a common sight seeing a cop car parked up too, made it very clear it was socially unacceptable to speed and potentially run over little kids (as it should be).

    Premier Icon tthew
    Full Member

    They did 30 through here last time, and the time before that, and didn’t have an accident so it’s fine to do it again

    I reckon they probably did 40 last time and the time before, and now they are doing 30. Still bell ends but 60% less chance that someone is going to get killed to death so it does bring some benefit.

    Premier Icon andrewreay
    Full Member

    Will stick my head over the parapet and agree with @maxtorque on this one.

    There seem to be a lot of new 20mph zones in Scotland recently.

    While 20mph is ‘safer’ many of these have been 30mph for many decades previously, so people will wonder what has changed.

    I’d also argue that PARTS of these new 20mph zones are too slow for the road layouts and conditions – they could support 30mph limits (which is what they were until recently).

    An example of a school above is a good one – that really should be a 20mph, but unless there are some specific circumstances either side of that zone, more than likely that 30mph would remain appropriate.

    A blanket 20mph will be ignored by many, so they’d carry on speeding past the school, whereas I reckon a targeted one would more likely deliver the desired effect i.e. People doing 20mph by the school, and back up to 30mph on the wide, clear road with no turnings, driveways or crossings.

    Maybe in time these behaviours will be forgotten, and people will readily accept the lower speeds, but as long as there is memory of the previous limits, I think it is hard to persuade people into meaningful change.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Full Member

    They have put blanket 20mph limits in every town and village in the Borders, it was done under th COVID active travel type scheme, I think it is ace, feels weird at first but only mades the slightest difference to any journey timewise. But people are properly melting their heads over it, they are absolutely furious.

    Publicly made, common complaints on FB include:

    – It is only a trial so not legally enforceable, so everyone should ignore it (not true)
    – It is bad for cars as the revs at 20mph sit between 2nd and 3rd gear (but does 30mph not sit between 3rd and 4th?)
    – Buildings are being destroyed because of excess vibrations from lorries (WTAF?)
    – It is worse for the environment due to engines running for longer (not backed up by evidence)
    – People who claim they don’t see their kids before bed time as they are now spending an extra 2hrs a day driving (clearly not true)
    – It is causing gridlock as you can’t pull out of junctions due to traffic (you can actually pull out much quicker as you can join in smaller gaps, there is no traffic delay)
    – Everyone still speeds so its pointless (yes, but they are speeding slower than before)
    – The money spent should have gone in to filling potholes (it was funded by active travel grant, that money cannot be diverted into potholes)
    -It will ruin economy and business will close (no they won’t)

    My personal favourites though are the people who claim it is more dangerous as they are having to spend too much time looking a their speedo or who get bored and just look around rather than concentrating on the road. People actually say that in public.

    Funny how lots of countries on the continent has had 30kmph limits forever and people aren’t dying from over-revving vehicles and crumbling buildings.

    It is also remarkable how everyone on FB suddenly claims to be related to a paramedic who is telling them that they can’t get to cardiac arrests quickly enough. Its amazing as I know several actual real life paramedics and none of them seem to care at all about it.

    Anyways, they are calling it a trial so every chance the driving majority will get their way and it will be rolled back to cover only schools and very built up areas, which is a shame.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Full Member

    But the fact is, all drivers are irresponsible. When out estate (which is a stupid and completely ignored 20 mph zone) carried out a speed check because residents complained about speeding, something like 98% of the people caught speeding were, der, residents of the estate……

    One of my neighbours was a retired copper. He retired early and spent his days getting busy organising the community, organising the village hall, newsletters, Neighbourhood Watch groups, you know the sort. One of his projects was to address speeding on the main road that passes the rear of his house. He lobbied for speed checks, got Councillors involved, wrote letters to the press. Eventually the police sorted out a day of speed gun action. Of course you all know how this story ends.

    Premier Icon fazzini
    Full Member

    Or am I arguing with stupidity…

    Unfortunately this.


    @a11y
    beat me to it

    I wonder what noise reduction impacts there are reducing from 30mph to 20mph. You see roads you might expect to see higher than 40mph, but they are limited due to new housing estates etc and limiting noise is the oft-quoted reason.

    Premier Icon i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    @franksinatra

    Of course you all know how this story ends.

    No. Go on?

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Full Member

    He got caught speeding of course.

    Premier Icon scuttler
    Full Member

    Just watched Ogmios again. Still no ep4 but well worth a rerun in these lunatic me-first times.

    Premier Icon bigblackshed
    Full Member

    Rule 2 applies here.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Premier Icon chickenman
    Full Member

    Edinburgh has had almost a 20 limit on most roads for about five years now. At first I found it really frustrating but am quite used to it now. Basically folk are now driving 30 on the main roads but 20 on the residential ones when they used to do 40 and 30. When I drive in for instance Glasgow nowadays I’m alarmed at the speed that the traffic moves at.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Full Member

    ‘away and boil your head..’

    …is probably the best you can do with the terminally thick.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I’d happy have all roads within towns at 20, and speed cameras bloody everywhere.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Full Member

    They have put blanket 20mph limits in every town and village in the Borders, it was done under th COVID active travel type scheme, I think it is ace, feels weird at first but only mades the slightest difference to any journey timewise. But people are properly melting their heads over it, they are absolutely furious.

    Drove up the 702 a few weeks back. Most of the 20s made perfect sense, although there was one which felt more like it barely qualified for a 30, and sticking to 20 took a fair bit of concentration, and clearly the locals behind me were less than happy I was even trying.

    TBH the benefit of 20s is that it makes people more likely to do 25-30 rather than 35+. I’d rather the limit was 30 and strictly enforced, if there is no enforcement of 20s.

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Full Member

    Thought 20 was unenforceable and was only an advisory limit? or has that changed now in my absence?
    Outside schools should be a 20 when lights flashing thing imho, and 30 at other times (obviously dependent on the actual location and road layout). So only active in the morning, lunch break and around home time.

    If people are doing 40 in a 30 with part time 20, then it is probably the road layout that needs addressing rather than a sign and a big stick to rap offenders’ wrists.

    Just to get some people fuming, in those zones, I would be paying significantly more attention to my speedo needle making sure I don’t exceed 20 than I would at any other speed, which one can argue makes it less safe for those running across the road. At least I have a legacy ICE so you can hear the car more than those leccy ones with an artificial legally mandated “ooooooh” that one can still barely hear, or can hear but with less audible spacial awareness of where it is.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    20 is legally correct.

    Why would they change loads of signs and have some signs you obey and some not? 🤷‍♂️

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Full Member

    In Norway it’s 20mph pretty much everywhere there is any kind of residence or business. Some people speed, most don’t.

    30 mph anywhere near houses is crazy. Anyone who thinks it’s appropriate anywhere near a school needs their license taken off them and then neutered.

    Just drive at 20 and stop overthinking it.

    Premier Icon thepodge
    Free Member

    As someone who is monitoring speeds across a number of sites, I’ve noticed a very clear pattern has developed showing a lot of people drive 10mph above the speed limit regardless of what the limit is.

    All these people saying it should only be outside schools and only at school times… How do the kids get to school? There’s far more chance my kid will be hit 200m from the school than outside the gates, more chance he’ll get hit outside the church hall coming out of Beavers and more chance he’ll get outside the gym after swimming lessons… Speeding is a neighborhood problem not a 2 hour window outside a school problem.

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    More usual response to the it’s too hard to drive at 20mph crowd is, “hand your licence back” or for anyone saying their car is in the ‘wrong’ gear, “get an auto”.

    I’ll bet too that the same folk moaning are the ones complaining about cyclists riding 2-abreast, and now they’re complaining that cyclists speed and they can’t overtake us.

    I also live in the Borders and have no problem with it whatsoever – in fact it’s reduced those that normally drive at 40 in a 30 to driving at 30, or 20 if they’re behind me. One thing I noticed when I first came to live up here were the sheer number of drivers who drove at 40, whatever the limit.

    FWIW I use cruise control, and in my car it’ll maintain that speed set up hill or down – unlike my wife’s car that will coast faster…

    And for the avoidance of doubt I consider that NSL (National Speed Limit) really means No Speed Limit and drive to the road/conditions/vehicle – so it’s not like I’m a natural supporter of speed limits, except where they need to be.

    And for those that don’t know, Scottish Borders Council is a Tory coalition, no Greens etc.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I would be paying significantly more attention to my speedo needle making sure I don’t exceed 20 than I would at any other speed

    Why is this any more difficult than it is at 30? Of course it’s enforceable.

    30 mph anywhere near houses is crazy.

    Absolutely. A double decker bus going through a busy town centre at 30 is just wrong.

    Premier Icon andrewh
    Free Member

    One thing I noticed when I first came to live up here were the sheer number of drivers who drove at 40, whatever the limit.

    I’ve in the Bordera too and that is definitely a thing. They’ll be right up my bumper as I do 20 through the twenty zone, disappear out of sight off the back somewhere when we get to an NSL area and then come rocketing up out of nowhere next time I’m halfway through a 20 area.
    I’m like you, I stick to 20, 30 and 40 limits but admit I do push it a bit in NSL areas, my van is only supposed to do 50 but I do push that somewhat.

    Premier Icon allanoleary
    Full Member

    When arguing about something like this “@ing” your local police force in any reply will bring the whole thread, and the speeding problem/offenders to their attention immediately. Also has the impact of letting the idiots know that the police are aware they have been speeding/arguing for the right to speed around schools. Often makes them shut up and obey the law

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