This Scottish Business

I don’t think he’s lying, I think it’s a fuzzy area – one of those areas that will have to stay a bit fuzzy for a while because one side refuses to negotiate before the referendum.

And I don’t care, really. It’s not an issue that affects my opinion of independence, whether we have £, €, $ or ¥ symbols on our cash.

In the end so long as there is a no crawling back clause in the deal they can vote for what they want 🙂

Northwind – Member

The pound- the idea of the pound, if you like, rather than an individual banknote- is a valuable thing.

Ya, but with UK having the second largest external debts in the world … ya … how long before the bubble burst and when will everyone get drag down like US$. They sneeze everyone gets the flu errhh … 🙄

Valuable hmmm … I certainly don’t want to put all my eggs in the same basket.

And I don’t care, really. It’s not an issue that affects my opinion of independence, whether we have £, €, $ or ¥ symbols on our cash.

That seems a bit silly. Economic policy is one of a modern state’s primary activities and it affects everything else it does. If the state outsources some or all monetary policy, that’s a big deal. It’s not necessarily a bad idea…but it should affect your decision…

…unless you’re one of those FREEEEEDOMMMMM voters, of course.

The whole independence campaign is from my perspective really frustrating. I grew up in the borders with a real sense the history of the trouble and strife caused by warring between England and Scotland.

The UK is so integrated culturally and socially so will it make much difference? You are all governed by Tesco and Newscorp anyway.

I think there is a real problem of too much power in Westminster and this is a problem that needs to be solved for the whole of the UK. It is just that Scotland can hang it on a load of jingoistic nationalism. This though deflects from the real need for the regions of the UK to be able to make their own policies and mistakes that are suited to their issues. London dominates far too much. Maybe in the long run the whole of the UK would benefit by kicking them out of the union and being forced to make real changes to our economy 🙂

All this talk of comparisons to the Nordic countries is missing the point some what. The Nordic countries basic philosophy that makes them work is Jante’s Law.

The ten rules state:

You’re not to think you are anything special.
You’re not to think you are as good as us.
You’re not to think you are smarter than us.
You’re not to convince yourself that you are better than us.
You’re not to think you know more than us.
You’re not to think you are better than us.
You’re not to think you are good at anything.
You’re not to laugh at us.
You’re not to think anyone cares about you.
You’re not to think you can teach us anything.

Which inversely seems to mean that everybody is respected and wants to be respected. From what I can see all forms of work are viewed as a profession and people seem proud of themselves. This is total opposite of what seems to be the culture of the UK.

And is it really SNP policy to cut Corporation tax?

And is it really SNP policy to cut Corporation tax?

Great idea, Scotland can become a tax haven. Bet all those tory hating scots would love the irony of Starbucks and Amazon setting up a profit centre up there 🙂

Ben and THM can argue all they like about whether the Pound is an asset. All I know is that there’s no way I’m going to vote for a political party that puts it into some ill-planned cobbled-together currency union in order to end up in a worse mess than the Euro. And I’d be amazed if I was alone in that.

So I don’t think we’ll be seeing an independent Scotland using the same currency as the rest of the UK.

The Pollsters must be busy today.

Which inversely seems to mean that everybody is respected and wants to be respected. From what I can see all forms of work are viewed as a profession and people seem proud of themselves. This is total opposite of what seems to be the culture of the UK.

Considering some of the ‘they have crap jobs coz they was lazy” bashing that’s occurred on STW you may be right.

Not only to cut corp tax but to keep it below RUK corp tax by three percentage points. So who utlimately sets CT an independent Scotland or the RUK? It beggars belief especially when he is openly talking about this in the context of a fixed exchange rate. He is an economist, so knows this (misaligned fiscal policies within a currency union) doesn’t work. Therefore there is only one conclusion – deceit and lies.

So two key aspects or macro policy for a state – that ability to set interest rates and tax will be, wait for it, still in the hands of those (insert abusive term of choice) at Westminster.

Never have so many trees been sacrificed for so little!

The leader in The Scotsman sums things up pretty well

But in some areas the answers provided in Scotland’s Future fall some way short of being definitive. Unfortunately for the SNP, these areas include some of the most fundamental aspects of statehood. For the most part, the white paper openly acknowledges when a particular outcome is simply an “aim”. It makes clear it is an advocacy document. But in other areas it is guilty of trying to give the impression that a favoured outcome is a foregone conclusion, when even the slightest degree of scepticism would reveal that it is, at most, a best guess or a high hope. There are too many unsupported assertions in this document, and they let it down.

Indeed Scotland deserves better than Alex Salmond. Independence and Constitutional Change is too important.

more recently he’s claimed that by closing Faslane Scotland would forcibly disarm the UK, ffs,

In nuclear terms, yes it will. To create a military base that can handle the subs. missiles and warheads will take a significant length of time. There is also the other problem of somewhere geographical suitable. Coulport where they keep the nasty bits, is basically a hollowed out mountain alongside a deep water berth. I can’t think of anyway similar in England. The Clyde wasn’t selected because the English don’t like the Scots you know.

some ill-planned cobbled-together currency union in order to end up in a worse mess than the Euro.

So you won’t vote for independence because the worst-case currency scenario is the status quo?

So you won’t vote for independence because the worst-case currency scenario is the status quo?

The status quo is a currency controlled by a single state. What’s being proposed is a currency controlled by two separate states, with divergent economies.

Worse – and this is the bit that’s frustrating – is that Mr Salmond refuses to even admit the possibility that coming to an agreement over how these two states might manage this shared currency might be difficult. There will be a currency union, he blithely states.

Oh, and I suspect I won’t get a vote on independence, but whatever happens I will definitely get to vote on how sterling is managed 🙂

EDIT: unless of course you’re suggesting that one option is for Scotland to continue using Sterling, but for the RUK to control it? But that’s totally insane. Scotland: just get your own currency already!

What’s being proposed is a currency controlled by two separate states, with divergent economies.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that the currency would be controlled by one state, but used by two?
I didn’t think that an independent Scotland would have any influence on the pound, and that was part of the problem? (for Scotland)

unless of course you’re suggesting that one option is for Scotland to continue using Sterling, but for the RUK to control it? But that’s totally insane. Scotland: just get your own currency already!

That’s the only option on the table is it not?

Mr Salmond refuses to even admit the possibility that coming to an agreement over how these two states might manage this shared currency might be difficult. There will be a currency union, he blithely states.

Maybe he’s just recklessly assuming that the Westminster government will prefer to come to a sensible agreement, rather than watch Scotland leave without taking any of the national debt.

Maybe he’s just recklessly assuming that the Westminster government will prefer to come to a sensible agreement, rather than watch Scotland leave without taking any of the national debt.

There’s no guarantee that such an agreement would ever be made.

You forget that we’ve already done the whole currency union gig with EMU. George Soros bet that we wouldn’t stick it out, and he was proved right, and made pot loads of money in the process (which we lost).

Every speculator under the sun would be betting against this currency union and only the most foolhardy of politicians would think they would have any chance against that.

Ben, please dont be fooled by the idle threat of walking away without any national debt. That is simply more subterfuge. Its the sweetened way of saying that as a brand new nation state our first move in global financial markets will be to default on our debt obligations. Salmond may say some silly things but even he is not that stupid. It sounds good though doesn’t it. Hey you lot, we are not taking any of your nasty debt (did you watch how he did this twice in Newsnight) unless you give me more sweeties.

I hadn’t thought that the Scots were the kind of people who walked away from their responsibilities

We’re not – but the No campaign has a habit of assuming that UK assets* are English assets, so Scotland has no right to a share of them. If we don’t get to share the UK’s assets, we won’t share its responsibilities either.

* for the pedants, I use this in the loose sense of anything which has value or benefit

Tsk, tsk THM – now you are just getting incoherent. How can something be “brand new” and yet have pre-existing properties?

Ben, you will find that the methods for allocating both assets and liabilities in the case of a yes vote are well understood and both sides know the merits of each one. There will be inevitable negotiation on that. That is completely different from proposing a default. It’s a typical Salmond bully technique which like all bullying bluster is easily pricked *

* For the pedants, “prick” is only being used as a verb here.

yet have pre-existing properties?

It’s not a nation state now is it? Besides your just being pedantic.

If we don’t get to share the UK’s assets

The UKs assets aren’t limited to currency though are they?
If Salmond doesn’t want to shoulder any of the liabilities, he must be prepared to return ALL UK assets.

Cripes, I’m sounding anti-independence; I’m not at all. But things must be fair, and the UK has no obligation to make it easy for him.

The Euro area has a currency union, which basically means Germany telling the rest of us what to do – they’re bigger and have more money. What happens when (inevitably) rUK starts throwing its weight around and decides on a policy that doesn’t favour the Scots? It’s a foreign country, why would rUK care what damage it does?

We’re not – but the No campaign has a habit of assuming that UK assets* are English assets

So does the Yes campaign, doesn’t it? How much English money went in to developing those oil fields that they think they are entitled to? What about the refineries?

Edit, ha, ha Scotroutes!! I am fooled by all those car and bike adverts displaying their brand new models or talk of a brand new start for Scotland.

But actually Scotland’s Future was itself a brand new document yestrrady despite the contents displaying many per-existing properties of both fact and fiction. So I rest my case!!!!

Ireland was in a currency union for a long time with the rest of the UK and its economy did not develop very much until it broke with it as part of preparation for the EURO as I understand it.

If Scotland had its own currency then would it not be a petro one? Maybe they will decide not to spend any of the oil money locally like the Norwegians. 🙂

oldnpastit – Member

The status quo is a currency controlled by a single state. What’s being proposed is a currency controlled by two separate states, with divergent economies.

Worse – and this is the bit that’s frustrating – is that Mr Salmond refuses to even admit the possibility that coming to an agreement over how these two states might manage this shared currency might be difficult. There will be a currency union, he blithely states.

The important part is “diverging economies”- since our economies are incredibly unlikely to become significantly different in the short or even middle term. Even if governments take dramatically different approaches, economies have momentum like supertankers and obviously the 2 economies will have enormous connections still drawing them together. What’s good for the UK in currency terms will almost certainly be good for Scotland for the duration, and vice versa.

And of course there is room for future change- a currency union or even a non-union use of sterling makes a lot of sense in the short term while establishing the independent state, but is likely to make less sense on all fronts as time passes, and that’s something we can return to. No need or desire to change everything on day one, and no need to feel stuck with everything we don’t change. If in 2025 a new currency or the euro or the malaysian ringit or the bitcoin makes more sense, that’s something we can return to- and it’ll be easier to do so then.

Have to say this doesn’t come across clearly in the Yes message- perhaps because they think it’s bleedin’ obvious but it’d be good if they’d state it anyway I reckon.

So will being independent make that much difference anyway? As I said before big corporations control our lives as much as governments, much of our legislation comes from Europe and as a people, apart from London and the South East, the rest of the UK is quite similar.

Is it not just a lot of extra cost for a jingoistic vanity project?

Is it not just a lot of extra cost for a jingoistic vanity project?

Absolutely.

If Scotland wants a divorce, fine. As long as England wont have to pay maintenence or listen to the whinging if it all goes wrong. I’m not sure anyone’s really thought it through.

It is a bit jingoistic. I mean sure, Scotland doesn’t share the South East’s tory leaning, but neither does the rest of the UK. The only reason it’s being discussed is because the Scots have a different label and can be considered ‘different’ to the rest of us, because they were born in a particular part of the UK.

If it were Northern England asking for independence they’d be laughed at – why?

How much English money went in to developing those oil fields that they think they are entitled to? What about the refineries?

They were paid for by the oil companies (some state-owned to start with) who then went on to make massive profits because of them. Are you really saying the oil industry lost the English taxpayer money?

If it were Northern England asking for independence they’d be laughed at – why?

If Northern England want to join an independent Scotland, I’m sure they’d be very welcome.

I’m sure they’d be very welcome.

I doubt that.

I doubt that.

It’s the Southern Fairies we hate, not the Northern Monkeys.

It is a bit jingoistic. I mean sure, Scotland doesn’t share the South East’s tory leaning, but neither does the rest of the UK.

2010 map:

It’s the Southern Fairies we hate, not the Northern Monkeys.

Gotcha! If that’s not anti-English then what is? 😀

It’s the Southern Fairies we hate, not the Northern Monkeys.

But it is annoying, lazy stereotyping,

😐

While walking the dogs it struck me that I was being a little unfair on wee ‘eck. So I want to put the record straight. As an Independent State, Scotland will prosper and perform significantly better than the RUK. Thanks to the policies laid out in Scotland’s Future. Thanks also to the generous offer of a currency union, Scotland will abdicate responsibility for monetary policy to the people he was chastising on Newsnight last night. Given the inevitable weakness in the RUK that will follow in absolute and relative terms, Scotland’s interest rates will be set too low. Furthermore with the rush of new businesses to Scotland attracted by lower rates of tax and wonderful childcare, pensions and other welfare benefits, labour will be attracted, consumption will rise and so will prices. Oh dear. But wee ‘eck knows what he is doing and will have learnt from germanys mistakes in the past. He will authorise fiscal transfers from Scotland to those poor folk South of the border (presumably we will be able to call it that then) in order to create a better equality of economic performance and allow for the correct levels of interest rates to be set for Scotland.

May I be the first to thank him and my friends in Scotland for this wonderful gesture in advance. That is a noble response and we will be very grateful I am sure. Gee, what a guy.