This Scottish Business

teamhurtmore – Member

NW – did you see my question on “foreign” students? Do you have the inside track?

I wrote an epic response to it earlier then accidentally closed the window without sending it, because that’s just how I roll.

Short version- we’re pretty sure it’d be similiar to the current situation, with a bit of legal gymnastics- basically switching from the current “government pays your fees” for scottish students to “government makes a block payment to the universities who then give you a scholarship equal to your fees”. There’s precedent in some mainland universities, the EU won’t confirm it’s legit til after the referendum though but all the legal advice says yes. There’s a plan B which is much the same but with slightly different bullshit.

The upshot is likely to be that we also use the same mechanism to start charging EU applicants- my own opinion is that’s coming sooner or later regardless of the result of the vote, the current situation is silly.

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

That’s a decision for the Shetlanders and nobody else. If they want a vote then they get a vote. Exactly the same as Scotland.

Cheers NW, I agree the current situation is silly and must be annoying for you. Funny that down here, there was an impression that your nearest competitor (if I understand correctly) was discriminating against non-Scottish students two years ago, then flipped last year (due to the higher fees?). My number 2 wants to come to Scotland in 2016 so will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Thanks for the summary.

One odd thing about the white paper and Universities is that they claim an Independent Scotland will remain part of the Research Councils. Personally I can’t see the Westminster Treasury letting that happen, as they wouldn’t want ‘UK’ taxpayers subsidizing the Scottish Uni’s. Plus Scotland’s research priories would then be set by Westminster which is what they are trying to avoid.

It also then raises the problem of Scottish University access to Large Facilities. I’m sure the access would be forthcoming but at a price. There are real major risks to the Scottish Uni sector in an Independent world.

wrecker – Member

his reply was, ‘Well they can’t – they’re part of Scotland.’

He’s probably right, inasmuch as the referendum is for Scotland to leave the UK- it’d be perfectly possible for a part of Scotland to pursue a separatist agenda of their own but not to simply opt out of independence without doing so.

Dozens of countries manage to share things like CERN – that’s not a big issue really.

bencooper – Member

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

Say’s who Ben? Have the Islanders been given the opportunity to say? are they getting a seperate vote? They are as far from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London…..

Don’t get me wrong if the Scottish (or the Welsh, Northern Irish, Shetlanders, Hebridians, Falklanders) want independance then they should be alowed to have it. I think it would be a sad day 🙁

BUT it has to be all or nothing. Seperate currency (call it Sterling if you wish), seperate heathcare, seperate forces, etc etc. A region of the UK can’t demand to be independant but still expect to keep the bits that are convienient/will be easier/work better for them.

slowjo – Member
If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

Is Timmy Mallet dead?

As an Englishman born and bred, I am fully aware that I will have little or no impact in the vote, even though it will have an impact on me. I had a read of the Q&A section of the white paper and by the end I was amused and confused.

The White paper wants the best of both worlds. It states that a currency union with the rest of the UK is in the UKs best interest. That is nothing to do with Scotland, it is up the UK to decide what is in it’s best interest. And in some cases that will not be in best interest of an independent Scotland. The talks afterwards are going to be very challenging and Salmond et al have already set up the UK as the big bad wolf who won’t let Scotland have all its toys.

Actually I think the SNP missed a trick here. Independence is NOT about being better off, is is not about currency unions, decommissioning costs of oil platforms (that is in the White Paper). It is about a state of mind, a desire to stand alone and to hell with the consequences. The current approach is academic exercise, a middle class vision. Where is the passion? Where is the belief of ‘give us our independence’ and we will sort out the details later? That approach with a short passionate campaign may win. The current one will drive people away as they cannot be bothered to plough through all the details and other junk.

Nicola Sturgeon says #WhitePaper is “thoroughly honest” with Scottish people and contains “rational reasonable” answers to many questions

Ok, so skimming it till the stuff on the currency at the moment, but you have to smile at Exec Summary:

Scotland’s referendum on 18 September 2014 is a choice between two futures.

If we vote Yes, we take the next step on Scotland’s journey. We will move forward with confidence, ready to make the most of the many opportunities that lie ahead…..If we vote No, Scotland stands still.

Honestly? Wow a country stands still….Scotland enjoys a number of unique features but the ability to stand still….incredible!

And in the same summary

If we vote…Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.

Such as the level of interest rates and monetary policy in the event of maintaining £. A rational and reasonable answer, I guess???? May be it gets better the more you read?

I wonder if the FAQ contains, “getting a better/actual national anthem”?

it’d be perfectly possible for a part of Scotland to pursue a separatist agenda of their own but not to simply opt out of independence without doing so.

They should be able do whatever they want to!
If it’s possible for the scots to leave the UK, it should be possible for the Shetlanders to leave Scotland. They should be able rejoin the Scandinavians or the ruk if they want. Self determination, innit?

teamhurtmore – Member

Cheers NW, I agree the current situation is silly and must be annoying for you. Funny that down here, there was an impression that your nearest competitor (if I understand correctly) was discriminating against non-Scottish students two years ago, then flipped last year (due to the higher fees?)

Yeah, without getting too into it the current system means different groups compete for different pools of places with different restrictions on each. I think discrimination probably isn’t the right word since it’s not done by design, but it’s certainly not a level playing field. Frankly undergrad selection is a black art, glad it’s not my problem 😉

wrecker – Member

They should be able do whatever they want to!
If it’s possible for the scots to leave the UK, it should be possible for the Shetlanders to leave Scotland.

And it is. But the referendum is for Scotland to leave the UK, and Shetland is part of Scotland, if they want to do something else they need to get that on the table, any more than Scotland could leave the UK without prior discussion. Though they don’t seem to want to.

Will Sean Connery get a postal vote from LA?

GDP is pretty much the same if you discount oil, it’s when you add in oil that Scotland’s GDP pulls ahead of the rest of the UK.

Oil is a nice bonus, not an economic necessity.

and

Are you suggesting that having 18% extra some years is a bad thing?

No, but 18% less in most years is, when your case is that Scotland is “better off” removed from the Union. Plus, when you’re trying to maintain a pension fund, fund a national health service, free bus passes, free university, free prescriptions, council tax freezes, and whatever other highly prized socialist policies the SNPScottish Government have deep pockets for, then up to 20% variation in tax receipts is significant, no?

Sorry for the questions then NW – I thought admissions was part of your job. But thanks for the answers anyway. The “discrimination” was “Southern Talk” – but two years ago the advice from schools was dont bother to apply to EU – its a waste of one of your 5 choices. In fact, that was wrong at least for the next year. In the end, they gave some pretty generous offers to students that I was aware of in England.

Certainly seems a black art for sure! Very hard giving advice.

FWIW, as an ex-pat Sweaty who is currently living in England and who has lived and travelled far overseas for many years, I think independence is a Really. Bad. Idea.

The whole thing strikes me as being as well thought through as post-invasion Iraq and the utopian ideal being sold by unscrupulous independence fans is at best deeply dishonest.

The whole sorry thing makes me despair and means I am glad not to be in “the world’s best small country”* at present as it would not help my blood pressure!

*What a crap strapline to meet you at the country’s airports.

I think independence is a Really. Bad. Idea.

Why? Which bit of being independent would be not be able to handle?

utopian ideal being sold by unscrupulous independence fans is at best deeply dishonest.

Really? That bad? The white paper does sound over optimistic, but without the UK Gov engaging and giving definite answers what else can they do?

That’s what I find bizarre about the whole Independence debate. Already Scotland has it’s own:

1) Education system
2) Legal system
3) NHS
4) Banking sector (to a degree)
5) Sports teams

After independence it still doesn’t have monetary independence, and without that it isn’t really independent. It still will have to act with NATO on sending folk to wars the US/UK agree on. It still has to abide by EU rules.

To be honest the only people I see winning are the politicians and the lawyers at the cost of the everyday person.

The economy of the People’s Republic of Scotland is almost entirely driven by government money (i.e. public servants) directly or indirectly (i.e. companies and quangos fulfilling govt contracts). Someone will call me out on the precise figure, but it means about 65% of Scottish GDP is bankrolled from taxes as opposed to commerce. I’m no economist, but that doesn’t feel very sustainable to me…

The white paper does sound over optimistic, but without the UK Gov engaging and giving definite answers what else can they do?

i think this is the debate in a nutshell

many questions can only be answered with negotiations
One side will say its brilliant one side will say it will be dire and we dont really have all the answers.
Lots of things are unknown.

It somewhat leaves the debate as emotive and sabre rattling from both sides as THM excerpts from the white paper show and no doubt the UK response.

Dunno how this works but if Scotland are to retain the monarchy, does this mean that they will continue to contribute to the queen etc?
Will that make them part of the commonwealth?

teamhurtmore – Member

Sorry for the questions then NW – I thought admissions was part of your job.

I’m a recruiter rather than an admitter, I know our processes reasonably well and how that imoacts applicants but I couldn’t comment with any fairness on other institutions- there’s a surprising amount of variety. Not even just in places, or funding, but just what we think makes a good student.

Fair to say I find it more interesting than the rest of the thread does though 😳

I wish to contribute to this thread only for the purpose of commending Berm Bandit on his apology. This is not done often enough, and should be recognised.

Yes. Yes.

wrecker – Member
Dunno how this works but if Scotland are to retain the monarchy, does this mean that they will continue to contribute to the queen etc?
Will that make them part of the commonwealth?

I’d give the monarchy 20 years tops after a yes vote before they are told to get tae.

Yes. Yes.

Thanks scotroutes.

You got that last bit right. Actually, the amount of GDP spent on public services in Scotland is little different from that in the UK.

the amount of GDP spent on public services

is not the same thing as

companies and quangos fulfilling govt contracts

MoD/BAE/Babcocks/Serco all are major employers in Scotland and do not provide “public services”

I give in – only page 150 I’m afraid – slow work as the “Our finances are great” opening takes some reconciling with what the likes of McCrone say, the monetary policy stuff (unsurprisingly) is glossed over at least the tricky stuff, and then you get to what should be interesting the Sovereign Wealth Fund. Ok, wee eck, how do you set this up while at the same time addressing the current deficit? [……….a pin drops…………..]

Still the, “we will send a clear signal that Scotland is one of the most competitive and attractive economies in Europe with tax rates designed to boost economic activity and support the fast-growing industries that already have a comparative advantage here in Scotland…..this government plans to set out a timescale for reducing corporation tax by up to three percentage points below the prevailing UK tax rate.” [p140]

Ok so now we have corporation tax as well as interest rates determined by Westminster. This “we want to have more control thing” is getting even murkier especially when three pages later we get, “the tax system should be built around Scottish circumstances…”

Still the idea of tax cuts and competing globally on low tax rates will go down well on here I am sure!!!

I wouldn’t call Trident missiles, their delivery system and replacement a “public service” either, so there’s a saving to iScotland right away.

Got any figures to back up your 65% assertion?

Why not have a show of hands on here to ask who has both a mortgage and a savings account? If a Sovereign Wealth Fund is invested wisely it will generate a higher rate of interest than is being paid for in any debt servicing – and we don’t merely have to imagine such a thing, we only have to look at how other countries are managing.

I wouldn’t call Trident missiles, their delivery system and replacement a “public service” either, so there’s a saving to iScotland right away.

There are plenty of MoD employees and contractors who really don’t want to make that saving.

Scotroutes – a SWF is an excellent idea agreed and a shame that governments in the past did not follow Shetlands example!! A crime really.

But at least be “honest” (Sturgeon’s words, not mine) about how you set it up and its impact on current levels of gov spending.

An independent view:

“If Scotland became independent and the oil revenues were immediately diverted to a special fund, the rest of the budget would be heavily in deficit. That would mean that there would have to be big tax increases or public exoenditure cuts on top of what the coalition has already imposed.”

May be this is addressed beyond page 150 but I have had enough!!!

Scotroutes – STW’s assigned cybernat?

Winston_dog – spot on.

Sorry if my correcting and/or challenging your unsubstantiated comments is in some way getting up your nose. Feel free to provide evidence to firmly put me in my place.

Feel free to provide evidence to firmly put me in my place.

I thought it had been established that thee is no hard evidence either way to say an “iScotland” would be successful or not? Both political parties are playing games and basically the only info we have is subjective.

IMHO I don’t think being a member of the UK has had an overall negative effect on Scotland or the UK. I think that the reality is that the countries are so strongly linked that the process of splitting them up will only weaken both, not to mention the expense and bureaucracy of doing so.

However, I do think you are entitled to your referendum but I hope that the SNP lose.

The SWF thing is a complete red herring, as Scotland like the rest of the UK already spends more than it earns. Worse revenue from the North Sea is getting tighter, as a lot of old fields are struggling to make it worth while still running.

A race to the bottom of corporation taxes is an interesting idea, used by a lot of old Empire colonies to keep themselves running. However, it runs contrary to the opinions the left leaning pro independence people lot.

Do we have any idea what rates Scotland could borrow money at?

winston_dog – Member
Feel free to provide evidence to firmly put me in my place.
I thought it had been established that thee is no hard evidence either way to say an “iScotland” would be successful or not?

I’ve heard all sides pretty much agree that an IS would be sustainable on numerous debates..

However, I do think you are entitled to your referendum but I hope that the SNP lose.

The referendum is not an election.

The referendum is not an election.

That I know. But as the stand for an independent Scotland I think if that fails then it could be considered a loss for them.