This fire at Luton Airport car park

So we’ve sussed that EV’s are considerably less likely to catch fire than an ICE, so why do EV’s need to be differentiated when you’re getting on the Ferry / Channel Tunnel, and their status is even indicated on modern number plates?  Was this borne out of some old suspicions that they would be more dangerous, and the information hasn’t been updated?

Less likely to catch fire, harder to put out once on fire I think.

So we’ve sussed that EV’s are considerably less likely to catch fire than an ICE,

They’re much less likely to go up in flames. On the other hand once on fire they’re much more difficult to extinguish properly and that is potentially a huge problem.

(they do use halon on the chunnel and I’ve no idea how effective or safe it is with li-ion)

their status is even indicated on modern number plates

The green bar on number plates indicates a zero emission vehicle, so a hydrogen fuel cell car would be eligible if you could buy one. It’s mainly a ploy to raise awareness of zero emission vehicles rather than because of any fear or suspicion. Oh and it’s optional too, though I expect most dealers would default to using it unless the owner specifically requested them not to.

I’ve just had a quick scan of twitter – the social media sleuths are out in force identifying make and mode and arguing about whether it was a hybrid or not (what type of hybrid etc…)

I’ve no idea why people are so invested.

.

I’ve been a firefighter for nearly 25 years. The biggest factor in the amount of car fires we attend is the price of scrap!

It’s mainly a ploy to raise awareness of zero emission vehicles rather than because of any fear or suspicion.

This -^

It’s marketing by the government, otherwise you’d look around, spot a few Teslas and a Leaf, dismiss electric cars as a fad only bought by pinkos, sheeple and tech bros’. Whereas the reality is >20% are fully electric now, and if the year on year growth carries on at 30-50% the Tories beloved market forces will kill off ICE by 2030 even if they won’t.

I’m glad sensible people have already pointed out the EV fire statistics before I got here. 
I work in the fire industry and am constantly having to fight against this “trend” of EV fires. It doesn’t exist. 

cars, on the other hand, have become more flammable. Some of the reasons have been given above. EVs actually help fight against this.

and their status is even indicated on modern number plates?

That is optional only (introduced in 2020) apparently to raise awareness of electric cars. Although most new electric cars come with them you can change them for normal ones without any issue.
The apparent theory was it could allow for privileges such as cheaper parking and so forth but this doesnt seem to have happened.
A cynic might call it virtue signalling but since it was introduced by the tories it couldnt possibly be.

Wasnt the Liverpool carpark fire also caused by a Range Rover?

Some sort of LR with an LPG conversion iirc.

A lot of fires in the western USA were started by people parking their diesel trucks in grassland and letting them idle. After a while the engine started a DPF regen which heated up the DPF and set fire to the grass.

That sounds a bit implausible – aren’t most (all?) automatic regens done when the vehicle is moving? Sounds a bit like Real Diesel Coal Rolling cobblers to blame it on the DPFs, as the risks of hot exhausts on long dry grass have been known forever.

Edit: sorry, molgrips, not suggesting you are making it up, just idly speculating how the story might have got started

Ah, don’t worry everyone. It was a car that started it. No mention of the type of course, oh no. Imagine the reporting of this HAD have been an EV

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24365304/luton-airport-fire-driver-leapt-burning-car/amp/

aren’t most (all?) automatic regens done when the vehicle is moving?

Don’t think it is always the case – the engine has to be hot enough, that’s all. It’s also possible to run load whilst your truck isn’t moving, if you are using some kind of machinery on it.

Range Rover that started it – that explains it ! Dodgy electrics as fitted standard at factory. LOL

Yeah, forget EVs, it’s Land Rover products that we need to be worried about..

One of the channels I subscribe to on Youtube did a pretty unbiassed review on the facts and figures around ICE and EV fires quite recently.

The green bar on number plates indicates a zero emission vehicle, so a hydrogen fuel cell car would be eligible if you could buy one. It’s mainly a ploy to raise awareness of zero emission vehicles

Electric cars in Germany have an “E” on the end of their number plate.

1. Can’t recall any other similar demarcation in other EU countries.

a major concern now for a lot of multi-storey car parks is the extra weight of modern vehicles. Not all to do with EV of course, much of it just because of auto-bloat over the last 10 years but EVs are heavier again and the buildings simply weren’t designed for that amount of weight; they were built in the days when a car weighed 1500kg.

Not just that, either; there’s the increasing problem of the deteriorating structure of many multi-storey carparks due to age, corrosion in the steelwork and the concrete itself breaking up. There’s a car park in Gloucester city centre that’s been closed very recently for that reason.

Not just that, either; there’s the increasing problem of the deteriorating structure of many multi-storey carparks due to age, corrosion in the steelwork and the concrete itself breaking up

This was a very recently finished car park though wasn’t it ?

“Families at the airport were being warned no cars would be able to leave the wrecked car park until at least Friday.”

From The Sun story linked above – “families”, so single folk could go get theirs before Friday? 😉

It’s words and little phrases like this that are IMO a key issue in modern Britain – always trying to ‘drive a wedge’, divide (and conquer) etc, and working very successfully on the whole to get folk to support policies & views that in reality are totally against their interests.

welshfarmer
Full Member

One of the channels I subscribe to on Youtube did a pretty unbiassed review on the facts and figures around ICE and EV fires quite recently.

He’s pretty fair but an obvious point he missed on the stats, is that most likely the vast majority of the electric cars in his report are under 10 years old, where as the ICE cars will include things like classic cars, and old heaps from the 80s that somebody is running into the ground etc.

This was a very recently finished car park though wasn’t it ?

Doesn’t look like it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-66914262

It’s words and little phrases like this that are IMO a key issue in modern Britain – always trying to ‘drive a wedge’, divide (and conquer) etc, and working very successfully on the whole to get folk to support policies & views that in reality are totally against their interests.

Were they “hard working families”?
There’ll be a narrative about how the evil airport and airlines and EV car manufacturers (even though it wasn’t an EV at fault) have deprived these poor hard working families of their annual week in the Costa del Chav due to negligence and evilness.

Doesn’t look like it

I think FunkyDunc was talking about the Luton car park.  The answer is yes, moderately new, opened in 2019.

It was a Landrover diesel according to what I’ve seen and the pictures from the airport. Not an EV.

As posted above EV are far less likely to catch fire than ICE but much harder to put out when they are on fire. Which probably makes my PHEV the worst combo out there!

makes my PHEV the worst combo out there!

I have long established that, much like France, us PHEV owners are there to unite all others in their disgust for us  🙂

I’m glad that since everyone is being so objective we’ll be able to have discussions around the use of hydrogen or nuclear in the future without the predictable bollocks about explosion risks and other manufactured outrage.

It was a TDV6, reg E10EFL

There’s a video from the front on Twitter but I can’t seem to post the link. 

I’m glad that since everyone is being so objective we’ll be able to have discussions around the use of hydrogen or nuclear in the future

I’m not sure nuclear powered cars would be such a wise idea if only because of the risk we’ll end up with a zillion and one people giving sports almanacs to their younger selves in order to get rich.

I bet it was an e-bike in the boot of the Range Rover that caused it all. LOL

Can’t recall any other similar demarcation in other EU countries.

Not *quite* EU, but Norway gives them all “EV” plates.

This was a very recently finished car park though wasn’t it ?Doesn’t look like it

the one at Luton was brand new & cost £20million, obviously they didnt have room in the budget for a sprinkler system & ignored the report into the Liverpool arena fire that recommended them being fitted

I’m glad that since everyone is being so objective we’ll be able to have discussions around the use of hydrogen or nuclear in the future without the predictable bollocks about explosion risks and other manufactured outrage.

Nuclear is good for grid-level baseload generation, and I imagine that as a society we will eventually decide that it’s the best option to sit alongside the renewables.

Hydrogen, as discussed earlier on the thread as a fuel for vehicles works, but is very inefficient om terms of “input energy (electricity) to useful power (torque applied to wheels) conversion efficiency – in the region of 30% is whereas electricity is more like 80-90%+ ish. THe result of that is that you need 2-3 times the amount of electricity generating capacity for the same miles driven. Unless we end up in a sitation that there is surplus electricity generated worldwide that won’t be practicable and will make Hydrogen a more expensive form of fuel.

For passenger cars Hydrogen is also trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist – i.e. the “instant refuelling” that people seem attached to – presumably due to familiarity with the way ICEs get refuelled now. In reality, battery range is improving sufficiently that away-from-home recharging isn’t needed that often, and as the charging network matures it will not be the patchy status that it is today. Things like evey streetlight having a pair of charging sockets fitted to them for example.

Where Hydrogen works is for vehicles that NEED instant refuelling to operate long shift like earth moving equipment etc. It is likely a price work paying for then, but even then I forsee a lot of those units also having the option to plug in directly when possible to take advantage of fuel at circa 1/3 the cost of Hydrogen.

Hydrogen, as discussed earlier on the thread as a fuel for vehicles works, but is very inefficient om terms of “input energy (electricity) to useful power (torque applied to wheels) conversion efficiency – in the region of 30% is whereas electricity is more like 80-90%+ ish. THe result of that is that you need 2-3 times the amount of electricity generating capacity for the same miles driven. Unless we end up in a sitation that there is surplus electricity generated worldwide that won’t be practicable and will make Hydrogen a more expensive form of fuel.

Its also really tricky to store. The molecules are so small that you lose a significant amount to leakage whenever a vehicle is sat idle.

doomanic
Full Member

It was a TDV6, reg E10EFL

There’s a video from the front on Twitter but I can’t seem to post the link.

link

(allegedly, can’t read the plate myself)

and as the charging network matures it will not be the patchy status that it is today. Things like evey streetlight having a pair of charging sockets fitted to them for example

😂

You realise that we still have a patchy network of rail, water, gas, roads etc etc etc don’t you?

The problem with the electric charging network is it needs government investment on a national scale delivered at point of greatest need – which is to say in the middle of nowhere where there’s no public transport, no alternative freight options etc, not London where all the alternatives are already being delivered.
Left, as it will be, to private companies you’ll have masses of charging infrastructure inside the m25, and none North of the m80.

You realise that we still have a patchy network of rail, water, gas, roads etc etc etc don’t you?

I mean in relative terms. Aside from rail, I’d argue that the other services are quite complete – at least good enough for everyday use even if they’re not quite as shiny and lovely as we might like.

I’ve got more of a glass half full view of how this will play out (rightly or wrongly).

The charging network is getting better REALLY quickly right now – it’s quite impressive the number of charging stations that are coming online. It’s also worth bearing in mind that unlike rapid chargers 7kW chargers are actually pretty easy to install anywhere with a mains supply as it’s just a single phase of 240V. Either way it will be a LOT easier to roll out than a hydrogen network would be.

FYI Hydrogen etc has been debated at length on the EV thread, which is where this topic really belongs.

True enough, so back on topic. If they’d all been hydrogen powered cars would all the water created as they exploded have put the fire out before it started?

Also if the weight of cars is an issue for collapsing carparks, do hydrogen cars get heavier as you use the fuel or lighter?