Viewing 28 posts - 81 through 108 (of 108 total)
  • The tide seems to be turning, to promote the merits of wearing masks.
  • kcr
    Member

    Sorry for the above “rant” but even the inference that trying to be prepared for this pandemic somehow makes me a selfish prick genuinely angers me.

    Reading back through the thread, I don’t think I see anyone accusing you of being selfish. Your original question was about whether wearing masks was a good thing for the general population, and a number of people have explained why that is probably not a good idea.

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Subscriber

    ^^ Agreed, my rant was misguided in reference to initial post.

    Premier Icon CountZero
    Subscriber

    Unless you have a proper FP3 or PF2 mask then the main benefit of wearing them is not to you but to everyone else. They are far better and stopping anything coming our of your mouth or nose than they are at preventing stuff coming in.

    Understood, however, I have neither a cough, nor am I sneezing; on the occasional trip outside my house I avoid other people as much as possible.

    Premier Icon alpin
    Subscriber

    There is a thing doing the rounds here in Germany encouraging people to sew masks for both themselves and key workers.

    I’ve a sewing machine, but the three or four masks I might be able to make in a day are not going to be of a sufficient quality for anything other novelty factor.

    Bollocks am I wearing a mask when on my way to work… Don’t even wear one at work despite being in the workshop.

    However, the city of Jena in Germany requires people to wear a mask when outside. Austria has said that masks must be worn in supermarkets, but the supermarkets have to supply them….

    Double up a Buff if you want.

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Subscriber

    “Experts tell White House coronavirus can spread through talking or even just breathing”

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/aerosol-coronavirus-spread-white-house-letter/index.html

    trail_rat
    Member

    But the point still stands that minimising trips out and social distancing is more effective and more fool proof than wearing a mask and carrying on as normal.

    All of the above and a mask is even better.

    I will implement that when I see that the front line have their supplies sorted as they cannot social distance or work from home

    I don’t dispute it would be best practice . But I’m not using a mask just in case at the expense of those who must use a mask.

    kcr
    Member

    I’ve a sewing machine, but the three or four masks I might be able to make in a day are not going to be of a sufficient quality for anything other novelty factor.

    In a similar vein, I saw a story today about a hobbyist with a 3D printer who was producing parts for face masks. That’s a commendable effort, but he was taking 38 minutes to print each part! He was crowd sourcing to buy more 3D printers and raw materials, but he’s never going to make a serious dent in demand with that set up.

    What you really need is the government imposing some sort of war time style manufacturing control and compelling mass manufacturers to work on government contracts for essential products.

    Premier Icon Tiger6791
    Subscriber

    I thought the latest was that it’s understood that the highest rates of transfer is via droplet infection.

    Happy to be corrected but this is virus suspended in the moisture you breathe out and can stay in the air for a period of time. (Imagine seeing your breath on a cold morning)

    It doesn’t have to be aerosolised via a cough or sneeze. Just regular breathing does it

    Everyone does realize that the purpose of a surgical mask is to stop the wearer infecting the patient and not the other way around?

    There was a prominent German virologist on TV yesterday questioning the use of masks as he believes it lulls people into a false sense of security.

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Subscriber

    Roter Stern
    Member
    Everyone does realize that the purpose of a surgical mask is to stop the wearer infecting the patient and not the other way around?

    Absolutely, that is their primary purpose. One of the reasons why the asian model, where they are the social norm, might have lessons we can learn from.

    It’s just one weapon in an arsenal of ways to fight the virus.

    That’s ok then. It just seemed to me that some of the posts on this thread seemed to give the impression that people believed surgical masks were to protect the wearer.

    poly
    Member

    What you really need is the government imposing some sort of war time style manufacturing control and compelling mass manufacturers to work on government contracts for essential products.

    In the war manufacturing plants were much more general, a lathe or a press was the same for cars, planes, munitions etc fairly low tech, and easily adapted. The stuff we manufacture here is usually highly specialised, bespoke tooled and not easily reconfigured. Even stuff like injection moulding needs someone to make a new tool, which is usually weeks not hours, and increasingly not the same facility that does the actual moulding. Then add in raw material supply issues, the over reliance on China in our supply chain and the understandable desire that safety equipment should be certified and it’s not quite as simple as saying – stop making widgets and start making masks. Not to mention that many of those widgets are in supply chains for other things which have knock on effects – stopping food or medical device producers from getting other products out that society needs for the 90% of people who aren’t currently infected.

    kcr
    Member

    Sure, I’m not under any illusions about the UK’s capacity to manufacture anything that requires a complex supply chain, like ventilators (or even respiratory face masks). But for a relatively simple plastic part like the face shield frames that the amateur 3D printer was producing, I bet there are injection moulders who could retool and produce in volume for hospital users, if the political will and organisation was there to prioritise that sort of contract.

    Fair point about approval. Reading the story about the 3D home printer again, he actually admits that he’s not even sure if the hospitals will accept the parts he is producing!

    Premier Icon b33k34
    Subscriber

    It’s a case of wearing the correct kind of mask and using it properly. IMO best to be left to the professionals.

    On a positive note masks may help you to reduce facial touching however:
    -They may increase it.
    -They have to be the right type.
    -They have to available.

    I’ve always been very dubious about public use of masks. From what I’ve seen of other peopel wearing them, they continually fiddle with them.

    HOWEVER, my reading of the latest advice, and the whole basis of mask wearing in Asian countries, is NOT that they stop you getting the virus but that they reduce your transmission of it WHEN YOU’VE GOT IT. In the same way as the best advice I’ve heard on social distancing is to behave as if you’re already sick, the impact of public mask wearing is to reduce transmission by carriers showing no symptoms.

    For that purpose anything will work – it doesn’t need to be a fancy medical grade mask. A homemade fabric mask, scarf, or buff would be just as effective. The aim is to stop you spreading droplets when you cough.

    So, latest advice seems to be
    – leave medical masks for medics
    – wear anything you can over your face

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1245748613797613568.html

    Premier Icon b33k34
    Subscriber

    We have two principal recommendations: 1) everyone should immediately begin wearing cloth masks in public, 2) The govt. should immediately use all available means to increase the supply of medical masks, especially by heavily rewarding producers.
    The basis for our recommendation is simple: anything that combats the spread of the virus is absurdly valuable due to the resulting reduction in mortality risk (not to mention accelerating resumption of normal economic activity).
    We have very good evidence that universal adoption of cloth masks will combat the spread of the virus. Specifically, we know that 1) asymptomatic people spread the virus, 2) mask wearing by infected people prevents them from transmitting the virus (the report provides citations).
    How large are the benefits? Even if masks reduce transmission probabilities by only 10% (and as you’ll see, that is likely very conservative), the value of *each cloth mask* is between $3,000 and $6,000. Our best estimate is that their protective value is closer to 40-50%.
    These estimates are of course sensitive to the assumptions made in the underlying epidemiological models. But even if those models overstate mortality risk by a factor of TEN, each cloth mask *conservatively* generates $300 in value!
    So we must urgently promote universal cloth mask adoption. Why cloth masks? Because there is one policy with *even larger* benefits at the current moment than the average person wearing masks.
    That policy is getting more medical masks to healthcare workers. The same economic argument that says that masks for the average person are worth thousands of dollars suggests that each N95 respirator for a healthcare worker could be worth *millions* of dollars (report says why).
    This is not just us making up numbers to say something is important – in a pandemic situation, it is possible that each medical mask for a healthcare worker saves a life in expectation by containing the spread of the virus. So donate your medical masks today!
    If recommending that everyone wear masks resulted in medical personnel being unable to get medical masks, even in the short term, this would be a serious problem.
    This is why we recommend universal adoption of *cloth masks*, at least until there is no (domestic or global) shortage of medical masks for healthcare workers. Homemade cloth masks do not interfere with the production of medical masks.

    inkster
    Member

    Pulled my buff out of the camelback yesterday. I’ll improvise a mask using a piece of cotton insert

    I’m with b33k34 on this. All the questions regarding effectiveness in protecting you from the virus are valid, as we don’t have a complete understanding of the virus and effectiveness of various mask types but the point is if 20% of carriers are asymptomatic they are spreading the virus without knowing it. Ditto those in the early stages of infection, who could be spreading it before they realise they are infected.

    The cost analysis presented above absolutely nails it, the way the virus spreads isn’t linear it’s exponential. As are the mounting costs associated with inaction.

    inkster
    Member

    A question for those who might know.

    If soap is so effective in breaking down the virus, (the soap breaks down the fat coating the virus I believe) then why cant we just wash masks and clothing in soap? Why is it necessary to wash clothes at 60° and put masks in oven at 70° etc?

    Premier Icon rugbydick
    Subscriber

    @inkster

    If soap is so effective in breaking down the virus, (the soap breaks down the fat coating the virus I believe) then why cant we just wash masks and clothing in soap? Why is it necessary to wash clothes at 60° and put masks in oven at 70° etc?

    Heat will kill the virus as well as soap.
    Viruses can normally only survive at body-like temparature (say 20-40 deg C). Washing clothes in soap at 60C just makes it a little bit more likely the wash will kill all the bugs.

    Regarding the masks, I’m not 100% sure but there could be a degradation on their filtration properties if washed – hence just using high temperature to kill the bugs. That could be totally wrong though…

    poah
    Member

    No air to air transmission identified with SARS-CoV-2

    No detectable virus in areas that you would associate with “airborne” infections e.g. from breathing

    Premier Icon CountZero
    Subscriber

    Happy to be corrected but this is virus suspended in the moisture you breathe out and can stay in the air for a period of time. (Imagine seeing your breath on a cold morning)

    I’ve seen laboratory tests showing the results of someone sneezing with the microscopic droplets travelling up to seven feet.
    Trouble is, the tests are in a controlled laboratory, in still air, so would be applicable to being indoors, but outdoors, with the air moving pretty much all of the time, any mist or vapour is going to be widely dispersed almost immediately, shirley?

    Edukator
    Member

    Just watch or listen to your normal news source this morning. Europe 1 is all over the idea that you may be able to catch it from airborn transmission just from talking to someone, if Europe 1 are reporting it I expect your usual TV or radio channel wil be too. They’re quoting an American study – someone linked an American study on aerosols on the main Covid thread a week or so ago.

    tomparkin
    Member

    Not sure if anyone posted this already, but it came up in a weekly email I subscribe to and seems in keeping with the previous posts about cloth masks:

    #Masks4All: Make and wear a homemade mask to slow COVID-19 spread

    I don’t know whether this is a good idea or not, but on the face of it the basic argument seems persuasive, that even a marginally effective mask is better than no mask, if you accept the premise that masks per se are useful in reducing transmission.

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Subscriber

    People that where them to a supermarket not doing anything to help stop the spread or protect themselves.

    Unless they have open wounds on their hands. Having seen the hands of some medics on Twitter recently they should all be wearing gloves outside the home.

    trail_rat
    Member

    I’d just like to congratulate the who for this.

    America have advised the public to wear masks outside.

    Their advice has lead to trump invoking the crisis rule and preventing American manufacturers(that is American owned….it’s in China) supplying other nations.

    So Germany and Frances 3M n95 masks have been siezed (while on the run way no less) and are going to the US instead….. Chinese manufacturing plant.

    – i hope this is remembered for a long time. Dick move on both sides there.

    Unfortunantly/sadly trump will be haled a hero by his NRA gun toating voter public for doing it and protecting the nation.

    #votesmatter

    trail_rat
    Member

    That’s the French ones. Ok they were not under the order. That was pure economics.

    BBC News – Coronavirus: US accused of ‘piracy’ over mask ‘confiscation’
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-52161995

    The German ones were pulled under the don’t sell to other nations rule

    kcr
    Member

    Not sure if anyone posted this already, but it came up in a weekly email I subscribe to and seems in keeping with the previous posts about cloth masks:

    Looking at the website, the people behind the organisation appear to be a bunch of tech bros, not medical experts (have a look at the About Us page which has photos of the team with masks photoshopped onto their faces…). The first thing they quote, in really big text is:

    “Analyses show that if 50% of the population were to wear masks, only 50% of the population would be infected by the virus. Once 80% of the population wears a mask, the outbreak can be stopped immediately.”

    Which, if I read the source correctly, is actually lifted from a mathematical modelling study on a theoretical influenza outbreak.

    Wearing a mask might be effective, but I’d seriously question the expertise of the people promoting it on that website.

    trail_rat
    Member

    But we want them to help our country. We need the masks, we don’t want other people getting it… you could call it retaliation

    Bell end.

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