the thread for negative views about remembrance

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  • the thread for negative views about remembrance
  • Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    I’m really sorry to say this but the arguments used and indeed points of view espoused by you igrf, Nukeproofriding and even bloodynora are evidence of the lost meaning of Remembrance. The whole point of it is that we remember the waste and the sacrifice of lives in war regardless of nationality – it was conceived to be as far removed from patriotism as it could be and a recognition that patriotism was part of the problem. Part of this is evidenced by the soldier of unknown nationality “known only unto God” who lies buried in the tomb of the unknown soldier… Unfortunately it would appear that with you those who sought to change the meaning of Remembrance Day for their own ends have succeeded.

    grum
    Member

    Ironically, police were then forced to shield the offender, as a small group of men threatened to attack him.

    As he was bundled into a police car, officers had to forcefully remove several people at the parade, who were shouting “death’s too good for you”.

    Ray Turton, 68, added: “The police dragged him through the crowd and tried to rip his mask off.

    “He put up a lot of resistance and they had to use quite some force to restrain him. People were shouting ‘rip his head off’.”

    Good to see the correct patriotic fervour on display there. Shame the police were there to stop him getting lynched eh?

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    You have to laugh really…

    yup 🙄

    rudebwoy
    Member

    that was russell brand on the skates !

    dannyh
    Member

    an invasion of patriot ultras

    There goes good old Uncle Joe Rudebwoy again.

    Just because he doesn’t like other people’s opinions they are dismissed as this, or trolls, or whatever the clique are using dismiss dissenting views today.

    Too trite, too lazy – are we heading for a virtual show-trial followed by ten years ‘correctional education’ in the virtual gulag. Again.

    Even Marx admitted that the proleteriat might have to be told what to do at the start (dictatorship of the proleteriat I think he called it). Lenin took this very literally, Stalin even more so. The first time anyone relaxed the ideological stanglehold enough to actually find out how the people felt about their lot under communism…… they pretty much all said ‘no thanks’.

    How is life in the PFJ, or the Judean People’s Front, or the Popular Front for Judea – or whatever talking shop is currently in vogue?

    loum
    Member

    Totally agree with and respect the OP’s sentiment of supplying a place for debate away from the original thread of remembrance itself.
    Those calling for it to be closed should really reconsider as they’d be the first to complain if this debate was forced over to that thread.
    My personal opinion is one of respect for remembrance day as a time to remember those lost in war. For me, the politics behind the wars are for another day. However, I can understand that for some people the two are inseparable and thank the op for starting an alternate thread appropriate for those discussions.

    stevewhyte
    Member

    wayniac – Member
    5 pages of sh#t

    POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

    Yes, and you think it can’t get any worse and JY posts on it.

    tazzymtb
    Member

    tazzy why did you even open this thread

    I was hoping to see some nice balanced open discussion and honest appreciation of another’s view point, rather than two very entrenched and dogmatic ideologies talking at each other without actively listening, or at least trying to see it from another angle as a way of learning and at least sense testing your own beliefs.

    I now it’s a cliché, but just now and then it’s worth walking that mile in someone else’s shoes before gobbing off. Tying seeing what you type from the angle of someone who has had their friends die in their arms or disappear in pink mist, then and just then, you may understand why they feel a little sensitive. Just because you have the right to free speech does not mean you have to be an insensitive p..K about it(not aimed at you grum, just a general observation)

    grum
    Member

    Just because he doesn’t like other people’s opinions they are dismissed as this, or trolls, or whatever the clique are using dismiss dissenting views today.

    Whereas when you don’t like other people’s opinions you make irrelevant digs about Communist dictators?

    mrlebowski
    Member

    Classy…

    Youve completely & utterly missed the point about why I find your comment about trained killers insensitive..

    Go back, read what Ive written & try again..

    Its very easy to take comments out of context & twist them but hey Ive an idea why dont you try actually explaining why your comment about trained killers isnt insensitive nor inappropriate without resorting to clever wordplay otherwise known as cut & paste..

    Go back, read what Ive written & try again..

    I did go back through your stuff. All I got was whingey proxy threats about how I’d be dealt with. Looks like we’ll have to just (disrespectfully) disagree.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    Just because you have the right to free speech does not mean you have to be an insensitive

    dd’s one liner upset a few and junkyard said the armed forces are not infallible. As this isn’t a usual remembrance thread I can’t see a massive amount of disrespect there.

    crikey
    Member

    I was hoping to see some nice balanced open discussion and honest appreciation of another’s view point, rather than two very entrenched and dogmatic ideologies talking at each other without actively listening, or at least trying to see it from another angle as a way of learning and at least sense testing your own beliefs.

    I think for the most part it has been exactly this.

    We are on STW, there are personality issues as you recognise in your last sentence. It’s gone the way that most of these things do and has degenerated into pettiness, myself included.

    It’s a forum where debate can occur, and for the most part, debate does occur.

    It’s a sensitive subject that encourages people to have a say, to take a side and to grumble out loud, and it’s a positive, even when it ends in grumpiness.

    rudebwoy
    Member

    danny h -i think your’e getting a bit mixed up, it was an observation i made regarding this thread that you can check if you wish, marx and his ideas would be better on a new thread –more than happy to go there, but it does require a lot of reading and thought — be warned

    The words of harry patch are close to a marxian view–

    noteeth
    Member

    An emotive subject that has brought out strong feelings in all of us

    I think it’s a good thing to have brought up, tbh.

    My late grandfather (a Royal Artillery officer of nearly three decades’ service & a Burma veteran) once said that for all he’d seen and done, he sometimes wished he’d been a priest. He despised the glorification of war.

    Personally, I’ll always remember the sacrifice of those who knew their likely fate, and pressed on anyway. Among ’em my great-uncle, Captain Noteeth of the Somerset LI, who was killed during the bitter fighting near Caen & who told his cousin (who was serving with Monty’s command) that he knew he wouldn’t survive the day, so desperate was the battle. West country farm lads going in against SS Panzer divisions – and my great-uncle no doubt thinking of his young wife back in Somerset, pregnant with a child he would never see.

    To them all.

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Subscriber

    Oh, and the snarky ‘trained killers’ remark is so disingenuous; far more people join the Services in rôles where killing is most definitely not on the agenda.

    There ain’t no passengers in a fighting unit, you’re all there to get the fighting done and if necessary you will pick up a weapon and join the fray (on pain of a charge under Queens Regulations).

    Every soldier has to pass his BFT and shooting test every year be he an infantryman, a driver in the logistics corps or a PO in the Galley. I would expect the other services have a similar requirement. What is that if not training young men to fight and kill?

    tazzymtb
    Member

    As this isn’t a usual remembrance thread I can’t see a massive amount of disrespect there.

    even so It’s open forum, it’s a bit like saying that making racist jokes is acceptable as long as no darkies hear them. They could have expressed the same views whilst actually showing some respect for another persons view. funnily enough I wasn’t just meaning to the anti’s though.

    mrlebowski
    Member

    You obviously cant read.

    I never said you couldnt dissent but be respectful. Otherwise why should I or others respect you (or others) POV when you (or others) wont respect my & others feeling.

    Its a 2-way street.

    Lets have a dialogue by all means but dont take the p1ss. That just doesnt help.

    edit: To clarify, Im annoyed at the remark about trained killers feeling sensitive. That implies that servicemen & women dont have feelings. Thats not funny. Not at all. If you tried that on with some of my friends (whove recently lost a colleqgue) you had better stand by. Thats all Im saying.

    All Im asking for is some respect for my feelings & those of others. By all means have another POV.

    But..

    If you cant see why your comment is hurtful, well. theres little point in continuing this dialogue.

    RichPenny
    Member

    evidence of the lost meaning of Remembrance. The whole point of it is that we remember the waste and the sacrifice of lives in war regardless of nationality

    That’s what I thought; not so, according to google…

    If you cant see why your comment is hurtful, well. theres little point in continuing this dialogue.

    With all due respect, why did you open a thread titled “the thread for negative views about remembrance” ?
    It seems a bit strange to me, especially as you are so easily offended.
    It has been a most interesting read btw.

    No, I can read alright.

    But never the twain will meet. I made a provocative comment and you responded with some proxy threats. As I said, we can just disagree disrespectfully. I really don’t mind a but of robust argument.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    funnily enough I wasn’t just meaning to the anti’s though.

    hehe I was going to add a “unless you meant the other (anti thread) people” 🙂

    I think the racist joke is not a good analogy, don’t think what’s been said is bad, i just mentioned the rememberance thread coz on there those comments would be seen as disrespectful. The pink skateboarder was just protesting but where he did it was massively disrespectful.

    dannyh
    Member

    Whereas when you don’t like other people’s opinions you make irrelevant digs about Communist dictators?

    Not irrelevant given the politics he espouses and the proclamation of being an ‘internationalist’.

    I keep seeing an image of the credulous ‘approved’ pressmen nodding and smiling whilst being shown around engineering feats in 30’s Russia – I can recall Muggeridge as a ‘standout’ dissenting voice.

    It’s amazing what mental backflips you can perform when you are dogmatic and inflexible – whatever your political stripe.

    Anyway, I a-g-r-e-e w-i-t-h e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g c-o-m-r-a-d-e r-u-d-e-b-w-o-y s-a-y-s.

    I also trust he’ll deal with my counter-revolutionary heresy in a fair and just way, I only hope I can live up to the example set for me by our dear leader.

    crikey
    Member

    If you cant see why your comment is hurtful, well. theres little point in continuing this dialogue.

    That’s the point. That’s the whole point of debating things.

    You can try to make the other person see why their words have upset you.

    More of that sort of stuff and less of the heavily armoured stuff and who knows….we might have less to remember on this important day.

    rudebwoy
    Member

    My grandfather who was injured and captured in wwii, was also a life long communist, he had no issue with fighting fascists, naturally, but he did regard the army as the iron boot of the ruling class.

    Premier Icon duckman
    Subscriber

    Classic Crikey;

    or made to shut up for daring not to tow the correct nationalistic tone as approved by The Sun.

    Evidence please, although bonus marks for suggesting anybody who is patriotic/nationalistic/disagrees with you, is obviously a Sun reader.

    mrlebowski
    Member

    I made a provocative comment

    Thats all the proof I needed.

    You admit making a comment with no other aim other than getting a reaction (why else would you use the word provocative if the aim wasnt so?)

    Pathetic.

    rudebwoy
    Member

    Danny h don’t confuse stalinism with communism, easy for making cheap shots, but if you want to have discourse best to try and be civil about it. you seem to make lots of assumptions, which while they may provide you with comfort, are not really very helpful.

    grum
    Member

    Evidence please, although bonus marks for suggesting anybody who is patriotic/nationalistic/disagrees with you, is obviously a Sun reader.

    Evidence of what? There’s several people who’ve called for the thread to be closed, for people to be banned, and who’ve made threats about what will happen to people who express alternative views – read the thread and find them yourself.

    I never claimed everyone who disagrees is a Sun reader, it’s just that the kind of views expressed by some of the ‘poppy fascists’ in this thread could come straight out of a Richard Littlejohn editorial.

    You admit making a comment with no other aim other than getting a reaction (why else would you use the word provocative if the aim wasnt so?)

    Pathetic.

    Well it seems to have succeeded in revealing the true colours of a few who claim to be celebrating our troops contribution to freedom, by making threats to those who don’t show sufficient ‘respect’.

    This thread is an STW low point.

    grum
    Member

    This thread is an STW low point.

    Why?

    Has your post helped in some way?

    crikey
    Member

    This thread is an STW low point.

    If people are talking and not hurting each other, I’d say it’s a high point.

    dannyh
    Member

    Danny h don’t confuse stalinism with communism

    I don’t – it’s just that in the experience of the 20th Century, the dictatorship of the proleteriat (as proposed by Marx) became not the ‘stepping stone’ he envisaged, but the defining characteristic of real-world communism.

    If you’re saying we just got the ‘wrong kind’ of communism, then fine, but you could say that about any seemingly benign ideology that turned out nasty.

    My problem with communism (or even anarchism) is that it simply is not compatible with human nature.

    You never know, though, given rising population and competition for scarce resources – a sort of driven-by-necessity internationalism may still be on the cards. I’m not taking the piss now – but it would be a

    product

    of circumstance, not the other way around.

    Jamie
    Member

    This thread is an STW low point.

    Sorry, no. That would be here.

    Thats all the proof I needed.
    You admit making a comment with no other aim other than getting a reaction (why else would you use the word provocative if the aim wasnt so?)

    Proof of what? Why, was I denying it earlier? Thank jeebus you don’t make the laws round here if that’s your level of proof. It was supposed to be provocative you eejit. Insensitive or hurtful? Nope…it wasn’t supposed to be. But I wasn’t trying to win any friends with it either. You continue to refuse to explain why you’re so hurt by it.

    (I also note your continued ignoring of my comments re. your proxy threats. On the one hand all hurty whingey and on the other, all rufty tufty happily wagering on me getting a good kicking. You need to make up your mind how you’re feeling this evening.)

    pingu66
    Member

    I have been out this eveing with some freinds and met a few people who have lost loved ones in conflict. Northern Ireland, Falklands, Iraq and Afgan.

    Now I read some posts here earlier and have read a few now. I mentioned some of the comments. Some of my freinds were disgusted.

    STW has reached a new low. The recent bannings just made way for a new clutch of “big hotters”.

    Now relly I am so not arsed about a ban so those who do not wish to respect fallen heroes thats their choice but d1ckheaddarcy reached a new low with his comments about those remembering our fallen heroes.

    Darcy you are that pink skater. We feel sensetive about people who have given of them selves all year not just today. I also respect the fallen soldiers of other armies as they are doing a job an paying the ultimate price.

    How sensetive would you be if I were to take the p1ss out of your loved ones whoi had passed away.

    There are several people here who have balanced arguments. others have a point of view.

    BUT darcy I am afraid you reached a low point and unfortunately I actually usually like what you say, but not today.

    Well, I’m at a loss now…

    Darcy you are that pink skater.

    Well, it did happen in Bristol, so not that far from me. And to be honest, I realise it may have been a mistake giving away my location…

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