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  • The Annual Running thread – beginners/ultras/whatever
  • Premier Icon lunge
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    Cheeky half? It’s my favourite distance as it feels like a challenge and isn’t all about pure speed.
    If you are comfortable at 10k it’s not a huge step up.

    Premier Icon grahamt1980
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    Ok, might try and create a nice route from home then.
    Might need to take a half day at work though so i don’t eat family time.

    Premier Icon jam-bo
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    Any recommendations for soft flasks (<500ml) that don’t taste plasticky. Got two hydrapak ones and they still taste horrible.

    or tips for getting rid of the taste.

    Premier Icon grahamt1980
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    I bought some decathlon ones and they seem fine. Have also been using them for biking sometimes

    Premier Icon 69er_Gav
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    Don’t bother with Salomon ones. They are technically great but still taste of plastic 3 months in

    Premier Icon 69er_Gav
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    Today being the 16th means I’m on day 16 of the 496 challenge. 136km done so far for the month, only 360km to go over 15 days.

    It’s been quite enjoyable to be honest and rather addictive. However, knees are starting to hurt now and calf’s are very tight. Not to mention a blistered toe which I guess is par for the course.

    I think it’s very doable challenge but the hardest thing is committing to running every day and finding the time. Pace is still too quick to be sustainable for the month (approx 5.30/km)…..must learn to slow down.

    Much respect to those ultra runners smashing out 100k+ in a race

    Premier Icon lunge
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    What’s the 496 challenge? Not heard of it before?

    Premier Icon Spin
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    Much respect to those ultra runners smashing out 100k+ in a race

    I reckon maybe 10% of the field in your average ultra is actually racing!

    Premier Icon Straightliner
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    I think the 496 is running the distance in km’s that corresponds to the day of the month, e.g. 1km on the 1st, 2km on the 2nd. For a 31 day month that totals up to 496km.


    @69er_Gav
    that sounds genuinely tough as you get into the back end of the month, good luck with it all!

    Premier Icon 69er_Gav
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    That’s the one @Straightliner

    Definitely tough last week so we shall see how it goes.

    It’s a fair point about actually racing @Spin . I guess that sort of distance you’re doing it to finish as opposed to win, aside from elite racing that is of course.

    Premier Icon Spin
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    It’s a fair point about actually racing @Spin . I guess that sort of distance you’re doing it to finish as opposed to win, aside from elite racing that is of course.

    I wasn’t doing it down, just joking really. Well, half joking. 🙂

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Finally, finally it’s happened, a potential end to my shoe saga. After buying and sending back 8 pairs of shoes (full list available if requested…) I have finally found a pair I like in a most unexpected place.

    See, after trying loads of heavily cushioned shoes (ASICS Novablast, ND 1080’s, Reekbok FreshFoam, etc…), I really didn’t like any of them. So I stepped back and worked out what I did like in a shoe and kept coming back to me Nike Streak 7’s, a low, light and fast shoe, I have more fun in those than anything else bar the Vaporfly’s. Sadly, they’re not available anymore, and in truth I do need a touch more cushion for every day use.

    Enter Adidas SL20’s. Cheap (£50 ish on Wiggle), light and very simple. First run in them last night and by gosh, they felt amazing. Fast, comfy and no where near as narrow as the Adidas shoes I’ve bought in the past. Highly recommended.

    Just need to work out whether to try and get on the Vaporfly 2 drop next week…

    Premier Icon surfer
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    @lunge Been running in Hokas for ages (well just a few miles jogging every other day really) due to the stiff forefoot and my dodgy toe joints. Bought a pair of Nike Vapour fly 3’s ages ago because they have the carbon plate. Wanted them to help with my toes not for any performance benefits but they feel great. Always preferred Nike shoes. Force me onto my forefoot and toes where I like to be! The Hokas dont and first run for a while last night on the treadmill ran 5 miles getting faster at close to 7 min miling towards the end and feeling easy.
    I think the treadmill may be my go to place for a bit until I am confident my calf wont pull after a mile or two outdoors. It is not like the real thing but better than not running at all so I can live with that for a bit.

    Premier Icon johndoh
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    Continuing my attempt to get fit for the summer (I never run much in the winter months – I hate running in the dark, wet and cold) with an impending GNR in September covid permitting, I have been upping my mileage with a 5 mile run last weekend (9.15m pace). Last night I went out for a shorter run (just 2.6 miles) but pushed myself harder and managed a 8.24 pace on a hilly course which I haven’t normally got to until June / July time in previous years. Injuries permitting I am feeling really happy and hoping I will be able to keep this up and better my last GNR finish time from 2019 (1hr 59m).

    I just wish somewhere had old stock Saucony Guides in as mine are wearing out a bit now but I don’t fancy spending >£125 a new pair.

    Premier Icon alanf
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    @lunge – Oh dear, this will potentially open you up to the other Adidas race shoes, Adizero Adios, Adizero Pro, Adizero Adios pro etc… Welcome and enjoy and prepare to be confused.
    I’ve not tried the SL20s but have heard good things…

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Oh dear, this will potentially open you up to the other Adidas race shoes

    Yeah, I fear this may be an issue, but I’m seeing it as a positive in that it opens up another brand to look at.
    At the moment, I think, think, I’ve got what I need for the moment, my beloved Peg 36’s are great as a cushioned trainer, the SL20’s and the Streaks for fast work and the plated shoes for racing.
    Obviously, I say this as a man who has already put a reminder in his diary for the Vaporfly Next% 2 release date…

    Premier Icon cat69uk
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    Help needed to avoid anymore spending 🙂 Encouraging my 17 year old son to do more running. I bought him New Balance Fuel Cell Echo which seemed fairy cushioned & neutral but he is getting foot pain in his sole? Never had myself, so no knowledge. Mainly quick 3 miles to 6 miles, he has no real interest to go further. Not many cheap runners these days, so don’t want to spend £80 and have the same problem.

    Premier Icon lunge
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    @cat69uk, some shoes just don’t work.
    I’d maybe suggest trying a few pairs and seeing what works, most of the big brands do free returns.
    For a good value start point, have a look at Nike React Miler, Adidas SL2 or Reebok Floatride Energy 3.

    Premier Icon lunge
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    My “sort of” 1 year streak was completed on Saturday. I say “sort of ” as I had 5 days in November where I picked up a niggle and had to revert to a walk and 40 mins on the turbo, so it’s an exercise streak rather than a run streak i guess. Still pretty chuffed about it. Can’t see any reason to stop now either.

    Unrelated, and this may be a question to those of us who’ve run ultra’s or marathons. I’ve been trying to do a 18-20 mile run every 4 weeks to get my body used to that kind of distance. Every one before this weekend has been on the road at under 8 minute miles, mostly at nearer 7:45’s and I’ve always finished them feeling pretty good, tired but certainly not exhausted. This weekend I decided to try and do the same distance but at the speed and style I intend to do my ultra, so rolling trails, aiming at a smidge over 9’s, taking it easy and walking up anything steep. And it really beat me up, felt dead at the end of it.

    I’ve not changed my fueling at all (I try and train without fuel), the elevation was very similar, the trails were fast and pretty much mud free. All very odd. Feels like running slower is harder than running faster. Anyone else encountered similar?

    Premier Icon shortbread_fanylion
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    Yes, can empathise with this, although at a much different level/volume of running. I do 20/25 miles a week and find slow runs taxing on the legs. Sometimes more so than a hard interval session.

    Premier Icon surfer
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    Feels like running slower is harder than running faster. Anyone else encountered similar?

    Yes. You may find that once you slow too much you become a bit less efficient. If you race at say 5 minute miles then your long runs may be at say 6:30 pace. If you try to run your long runs at 8:30 pace for example I think its unhelpful. You need to train within a range.
    Train too slow and it is tiring and injurious without any real benefit. I ran once with a local club and their Sunday run was ridiculously slow and some of them were decent runners. I am talking at close to a fast walk. May has well have stayed in bed.
    How long is your ultra?

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Glad it’s not just my body being weird!

    Ultra is 40 miles and is in May (Covid pending!).Target pace is/was 9mm ish which i’ve somewhat plucked out of the air!

    For context, target marathon pace is 7:30mm ish (maybe a touch faster, it’s not until autumn so plenty of time to build over the summer).

    My weekly training runs tend to average at just under 8mm, some a reasonable amount quicker, some slower.

    Premier Icon alanf
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    @lunge – I try not to set target pace for any events/training. I don’t wear a watch so it’s easy not to have any reference when out running. I just go by feel and if I feel good push on and if not, then my body will slow me down. This is just my way and I wouldn’t advocate it for others but I’ve done it for so long its normal to me now. I figure the training I’ve done should set me up for the racing, and as it’s not a set pace in training then I’m not hindered by that when racing. Also, if I’ve not done the training well enough then I wont perform on the day. If you can do a set pace in training for a distance then why not in your ultra, why knock it back to a theoretical pace because it’s within your perceived comfort zone as manageable? Don’t limit yourself on pace. Once you get deeper into the mileage it’ll be more about your fuelling strategy and keeping that where it needs to be. The longer you’re on your feet the more things will start to hurt/ache, but then you’ll know that from the training and it wont be a shock but you will need to manage it mentally.

    Premier Icon surfer
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    You know best Lunge but I think your 9 min milling for 40 miles is conservative. It depends on how you react to the longer distances as well its not just training some people perform really well over longer distances and some less so. I have a friend who ran 62 mins for a half but couldnt run faster than 2:17. He should have been running 2:12 or under but he just didnt seem to have the makeup to do it. He ran 46:30 for 10 miles (still on the UK all time list) I think your 7:30 pace for a Marathon is slow. if you are running 7:45 for 20 in training I expect you can run a fair bit per mile quicker even with 10k added on.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Full Member

    The reason I have 7:30’s in my head for a marathon is that gives me a 3:15, if I start thinking about going faster than that then a whole world of pain awaits as I go for a sub-3…

    I think you’re right on the ultra @alanf, I need to run it on feel (within reason), my mileage is high enough that I know I can do the distance, if I slow at the end it’s not the end of the world. When I entered it way back on the heady days of 2019, I wasn’t running as far or as fast as I am now so set myself the goal of doing it in under 7 hours (1.5 marathons at 9mm, plus an extra hour), I need to amend that goal I think, maybe 6 is doable?.

    I suspect just eating during long runs will add some pace, I’m doing up to 20 without food or drink at the moment. That and having people around me will both help.

    Premier Icon mrsheen
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    @lunge – It might be that the off-road long run took more out of you due to the uneven surfaces, different muscles used for uphill effort and presumably more ground contact than road running where faster (something to do with cadence?)

    Premier Icon loum
    Free Member

    @lunge
    I know what you mean about targets but, imo, that’s a big jump between 3.15 and 3.00
    As you get closer to a round number , it is a lot more tempting – but there is value in targeting 3.05 or 3.10 too. Don’t know how old you are, but this helps me see a point to those figures.
    My age group is 45-49, “so good for age” is 3.10
    That’s very tough, but a lot more achievable than 3hr dead, and it makes the 3.10 target so much more psycologically valuable than if this didn’t exist – if that makes sense.
    hope this helps.

    London Marathon 2022 Good For Age qualifying times
    Age Men Women
    18-39 sub 3:00:00 sub 3:45:00
    40-44 sub 3:05:00 sub 3:50:00
    45-49 sub 3:10:00 sub 3:53:00
    50-54 sub 3:15:00 sub 4:00:00

    https://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/en/enter/how-to-enter/good-for-age-entry

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Hmm, good for age is 3:05 then. Interesting…

    Premier Icon loum
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    The other thing is sometimes we all just have an off day.
    Yours may have coincided with the first trail run, but not actually been caused by it. It’s hard to tell from a sample size of one. You might go out next week, find your flow, and smash it.

    But I would also definitely be trying to do more regular running on the surface you intend to ultra on from now in.

    eedit. just spotted your comment about training unfueled.
    20 miles at 9 puts you at 3hours on your feet.
    By slowing down, you’re taking longer on your feet, you could been eating deeper into bodies energy stores.
    I’ve always seen it quoted as 90 minutes energy available, not by distance, so fueling might be more critical than when you were running faster.

    Premier Icon alanf
    Free Member

    Be aware though with the good for ages, that you have to be in the first x amount of times below those cut-offs, so it’s no good just thinking you can run 3:04:59 and be in. It’s not guaranteed.

    Premier Icon turboferret
    Full Member

    @lunge I sometimes finish a slow run feeling knackered while the same distance at a much quicker pace would leave me feeling fresh at the end. Efficiency I think is key, and what you’re used to. When I go for a slow recovery run I try and make sure it is really easy, and not in the zone of just getting you tired but with minimal fitness improvement nor shaking out fatigue.

    9 min miling does also sound pretty conservative and assuming the terrain isn’t really challenging then I’d be looking to be a bit more ambitious

    Premier Icon Pieface
    Free Member

    @lunge, definitely practice eating during your trainig runs, even if you don’t feel that they’re long enought to warrant it. When it comes to tyour big event you’ll definitely need to be topping up your carbs, which will mean a gel every 30 minutes or so. If you don’t train your digestion as well as you’re running, it may not be your fitness that stops you finishing the race!

    Premier Icon turboferret
    Full Member

    Try a variety of types of food too. When I ran the Capital Ring last summer I carried a kilo of solid food which I couldn’t stomach at all, while gels and fluids were going down fine. I very rarely take anything on a training run, although if it’s going to be long and hard I might snaffle a gel before and halfway, but I know I can neck gels without any issue. Unless they are Gu of course, they’re rank 😮

    Premier Icon lunge
    Full Member

    definitely practice eating during your trainig runs, even if you don’t feel that they’re long enought to warrant it. When it comes to tyour big event you’ll definitely need to be topping up your carbs, which will mean a gel every 30 minutes or so. If you don’t train your digestion as well as you’re running, it may not be your fitness that stops you finishing the race!

    I do eat on some long runs, I do a couple closer to the event when I try and use the same gels that the event will be offering, last thing you want is an adverse reaction on race day though I have a pretty strong stomach! For the ultra I have an idea of what will be at the feed stations so will know what works (jelly babies, soreen, jam sarnies) and what doesn’t (anything nut based!). Weirdly, I quite like the Gu gels, and I like how small they are so they fit in a key pocket on my shorts.

    But for the majority of the training I do without as I think it helps me become a bit more efficient. I can do up to about a half without any food before or during, anything more than that and I need some breakfast and/or a gel at some point. It’s also quite interesting seeing how your body reacts when it does bonk, and how much more you do once it happens.

    Premier Icon bob_summers
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    Three weeks since the sprain, decided for an easy trot around the same loop having done some gentle beach runs and a bit of road.

    Passed the bit I rolled my ankle on (walked down obvs) feeling smug. Rolled the bloody thing again about 3km afterwards. Was looking out into the bay and not at the trail…

    Livid. Heard it crack again, maybe not as bad this time. Considered limping out to the nearest place to get a bus/cab like last time but after a few painful paces it went numb so I finished the loop at a very lopsided hobble. If I can bear weight on it tomorrow I think I’m just going to keep going. And avoid that trail…

    Premier Icon mogrim
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    I managed a new PB yesterday, 18:46 for a 5K which I’m pretty chuffed with, not bad at 49 years old 🙂

    (It was on a track which made life easier, but still had to do it!)

    Premier Icon Spin
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    Nice one Mogrim, decent time that!

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Rapid Mogrim, very rapid.

    Premier Icon vanilla83
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    Very impressive Mogrim!

    Premier Icon shortbread_fanylion
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    Nice one, I’ve been aiming for sub 20 but not quite there yet. And given I’ll be riding more now for the next few months I think it’s not going to happen! Autumn, maybe…..

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