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  • The Running 2020 thread – beginners/ultras/whatever
  • trail_rat
    Member

    Well that went exactly as expected.

    Zero enthusiasm and lack of training due to lack of sleep and illness (kids eh)

    Ran first 20k really well but it was apparent by then knowing the profile I would be coming out in a land rover.

    Elected to run the short course and as I predicted was reduced to walking by about 27km with a stabbing pain in the tendons in my right knee….I’m pretty sure it’s my hip again.

    Hobbled the rest of the way.

    Great course . Would thoughrally recommend to anyone looking for a trail marathon.

    Chapaking – best way to get quicker is intervals, in my experience. Also, long, slow runs, which I don’t do enough of and shorter slow runs, again which I should do more of. Slow as in your own slow.

    What he said.

    Really, really slow long runs
    Interval sessions
    Tempo runs
    Find folk to run with

    Don’t fall into the trap of doing all your runs at ‘your pace’, you’ll stagnate.

    Chin up Terry, it’s early in the year yet, you’ll be reet.

    Carnethy 5 was mental yesterday, massive kudos to the Marshalls at all 5 summits.

    First run in inov8 mudclaws, it’ll be the last, way too narrow – not the fit, the high, narrow soles feel unstable. Brilliant in mud, but not for me, I prefer a wider sole.

    surfer
    Member

    Intervals, fartlek, hills. All good for building speed along with slower paced miles. Speed is a relative thing but if you want to get quicker then you don’t want to spend much time, too far away from your goal pace. If you train too slowly don’t expect to race much faster. Running long slow runs make you better at running long slow runs surprisingly.

    Premier Icon mogrim
    Subscriber

    Never met a runner who wore anti pronation shoes for example that benefited

    Don’t agree with @surfer regarding stretching, but this completely matches my experience. A nice neutral shoe with more padding if you’re just starting / less padding if you’re faster and you’re done.

    Today was a relatively easy 21km run up a local mountain, here’s a picture of some circling vultures and a sea of clouds for you:

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Chapaking, I’d suggest a few things already mentioned above:
    Intervals/fartlek. They don’t have to be perfectly timed or measured, just run hard to that tree, slow to the next one, and repeat.
    Hill sprints. Deeply unpleasant if done right, but real benefits too.
    Tempo runs are good too, though I find I’m better at them when done with a group as they can be hard work. Which leads to…
    Run with others, a club perhaps. Nothing like running with people who are faster than you to push you.

    What I don’t agree with is “Really, really slow long runs”
    If you’re training for an event then your long runs need to be in the ballpark of your target pace. I find that if I do to many of these then my body adapts to the slower pace, which is not the idea at all. All my training runs, bar the odd recovery plod, are the same pace or faster than target event pace.

    trail_rat
    Member

    spoke with the physio dude last night.

    the plan is NSAIDs this week and a heavy program of squats and deadlifts and start short runs after that. Back on the turbo for now. I can do that without pain. its up and downhills/stairs that kill me.

    Same thing as last year , i never learn – I have been doing my squats and deadlifts but not diligently enough and not progressively enough.

    I’m over compensating for weak hip flexors and with my quads and possibly dropping a hip on that side. which is exasperating it sooner than it would if i ran with level hips.

    Never mind – it was never going to be a great year for anything. shed road of building work at the house – it will at least mean plenty of lifting, squatting,deadlifting – and active recovery i’m going to call it.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
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    Week 7 of C25K completed, just 2 weeks left now. Back to my normal slighly hilly route, which is getting slighly easier at the ‘summit’ on the home leg. This weeks runs have all been within 0.1km so nice and consistent, will keep the same pace for next weeks runs.

    2.87 miles / 4.62km
    25:09 moving time
    8:45 /mile / 5:26 /km average pace

    I’m starting to think about life after C25K, I would love to be able to run 10k ‘comfortably’, I’ll probably try and fit in 2x 5k runs per week with a longer run, increasing distance, so 6k, 7k, etc.

    I’m also unconvinced by the ‘run slow to run fast’ idea. I think it’s key to nurture good form to run fast e.g. cadence, knee and heel lift, stride contact point i.e not overstriding. Too much slow running just reinforces form weaknesses slow runners will likely already have in these areas. Over the last couple of years my best results at 5/10k have always been preceded by hammering out tempo/fast hills/intervals, and when I go through a spell of long mountain runs, the top speed at 5k slips away.

    Aye, every chance I’m wrong, or it’s more a mental crutch, hammering out 10k pace for 40 minutes doesn’t seem as daunting when I’ve ran (albeit slowly!) For a lot longer, and for a few hours.

    Makes it feel a lot smaller. 🤔😊

    Premier Icon rugbydick
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    @wardee have you tried Footworks out in Currie? They specialise in barefoot shoes, but should be able to give you some insight into your feet too.

    alanf
    Member

    @wardee also check out Topo shoes. They are similar to Altra in concept. My wife uses them and they seem to have a massive toe box which appears to be deep as well as wide. Not sure if they’ll be suitable for you but worth a look.

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Does anyone else donate blood, and if so, how long does it affect your running?
    I gave a pint Monday lunch time, went for a plod Tuesday morning and felt like everything was harder than it should have been. I’m running with a club tonight and need to decide which group to go in, the one I normally do and am conformable, or a slower one to make up for the lack of blood!

    I usually give blood around 1800 after work, and feel okay to run at 1200 next day, but we’re all different!.

    wardee
    Member

    Cheers for the suggestions, thought footworks was online only these days?

    Resorted to running in hiking boots yesterday bit heavy, but at least they fit.

    surfer
    Member

    Or as the greatest athlete of the 20C said:

    null<a

    wardee
    Member

    With regards to slow running. Context is everything and slow is relative.

    An elite runner will typically run 100+ miles a week, yet ask them to race 5km, and most of them collapse when they cross the line and are half dead.

    It is not possible to run for several hours a day unless you run significantly slower than race pace* for the majority of your training.

    What the elite road and track runñers who are running ‘slow” don’t usually do is run for 3 or more hours at a time at a pace which affects their form.

    * longer ultras are a bit different.

    Premier Icon lunge
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    With regards to slow running. Context is everything and slow is relative

    Context is important, as are realistic paces.
    I use “race pace” in the context of the distance you’re aiming at. So if you want to do a 4 hour marathon then I would be doing all my running at a minimum of 9 minute mile as that’s roughly the pace I need to run to hut the goal.
    What I don’t see the point of, using the above example, is doing my long runs at 10 minute miles.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    Cheers for the tips folks.

    I think virtually all my solo runs are “tempo”, and I recently joined a local club where I tend to run a bit slower at more of a conversational pace. Maybe I should join a more serious club as well.

    I do intervals on the Wattbike in the gym – but I guess you need to actually run intervals to get your body used to running a bit faster.

    So my current 10km time is about 56mins. What might be a realistic aim for a half marathon? I was thinking 2hrs is the obvious target.

    Just to note, I tend to get knee and leg pain before I run out of puff.

    Premier Icon mogrim
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    I think virtually all my solo runs are “tempo”, and I recently joined a local club where I tend to run a bit slower at more of a conversational pace. Maybe I should join a more serious club as well.

    Aren’t you doing intervals or any speed work as well? I’d have though most running clubs mix it up, tempo one session, intervals another, etc.

    And yeah, 2 hours seems a reasonable target given your 10k pace.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    Aren’t you doing intervals or any speed work as well? I’d have though most running clubs mix it up, tempo one session, intervals another, etc.

    They’re fairly new and more just people getting together and running, but they’re nice and friendly and I can run to the meeting point from my house so it’s very handy. There are some interval sessions but not at times I can do.

    There are a couple of other more racing-focused clubs locally, so I may spread myself around a bit when time allows.

    surfer
    Member

    An elite runner will typically run 100+ miles a week, yet ask them to race 5km, and most of them collapse when they cross the line and are half dead.

    Not sure why you think this would be the case.

    @lunge yes thats the point I have made before. Its relative to target race pace. Train over and under that pace but you shouldnt train too much outside those parameters otherwise you are wasting energy, opportunity and it can be injurious.

    Thats not to say its not great fun and I do almost all of my “running” at jogging pace now but its just not optimum and you wont get faster runners wasting much energy for that reason.

    I used to do a twice monthly session of 24 x 400 which was useful, all around 75 secs per lap with around 90 secs recovery. Tough but good training for everything from 5k upwards. Another session I did every Monday at the end of a steady run was 10 x approx 100m flat out with a short recovery. That was really useful for turning over your legs as fast as possible. Too much mileage can make you slow so build into it lots of short sessions, another was 20 x 200 on the track but they have to be close to max speed, not say 10k pace.

    I’ve hardly done any tempo stuff for a wee while, or track sessions! Think I’ll mibbe go parkrun this weekend, see where I’m at. It won’t be pleasant. 😂

    Premier Icon lunge
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    Bloody lovely club run today, felt much better than expected after giving blood.
    I do love how it’s all very pleasant and social for 6 miles then it slowly starts to string out until the last mile and half turn in to a proper smash-up.
    Only my second run with them but I already really like it.

    wardee
    Member

    @surfer, I’m not entirely sure why you disagree.

    It is fairly obvious that elites put in a lot of effort when they race, and when you watch a track event on the telly they are often seen rolling round on the floor at the end.

    The 100+ mile a week is fairly typical based on various sources I’ve read over the years. Googling Mo Farah for example gives a figure of 135 miles a week.

    On a personal note I find that if most of my training is slow, I perform better at all distances from 5km upwards . It allows me to recover much better and it allows me to run a much higher number of miles in total. In the sessions when I do undertake speed work or hill repeats, my legs are fresher and I can run harder. I get less niggles and injuries and can run for much longer.

    10 minute mile and slower pace becomes highly relevant when you start running offroad, and competing in long ultramarathons.

    surfer
    Member

    @wardee you phrased it in a way that indicated that the 100mpw was somehow a poor preparation when it is likely to be perfect. Collapsing at the end of a 5k where you have ran an extremely fast 5km means nothing.

    Feeling fresh after slow miles and before track sessions is fine if the goal is to “feel fresh” but for optimum racing performance it’s about being at the limit of the training that your body can handle. Too much and you risk injury, too little and that small amount could be used to push you to faster times.

    alanf
    Member

    Someone I know who is pretty decent (2:25 Mara) uses the rule where he trains (tempo) at 1min per mile less than his race pace, so he’s somewhere around 6:30 or maybe a bit less pace for tempos.
    He focuses on Marathons but races most distances and is pretty rapid.

    I guess for a lot of people 6:30 min/miles will be pretty rapid, but that’s his slow pace.
    It’s all relative
    When He’s doing speed work he’ll be well inside 5:30 pace so as Surfer suggests, to improve you need to be doing some slower (relative) and some faster work.

    For Ultra training I would assume a pace much slower than 5:30s for racing at so it would again be relative to estimated race day pace.
    This all assumes pushing the limits of whats individually possible. Not everyone wants to do that and train at high intensity or push the boundaries when racing, so it really depends on what you want to get out of your racing.
    It’s never one size fits all.

    surfer
    Member

    I seldom listen to running podcasts as I find them a bit stilted but I spotted this because it had an interview with Mike Gratton and i am glad I did. The interviewer didnt ask any silly questions and allowed Mike to speak and Mike is clearly very confident and articulate. I didnt know he trained with Ovetts group in Brighton and I was very surprised to learn he had run 49 seconds for 400m which is very quick indeed and really shows the importance of speed. Anyway worth a listen IMO

    Podcast

    Premier Icon duckman
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    Nobeerinthefridge
    I’ve hardly done any tempo stuff for a wee while, or track sessions! Think I’ll mibbe go parkrun this weekend, see where I’m at. It won’t be pleasant. 😂

    That scientific method is my exact same way of measuring speed.

    🙂

    We have a club time trial every tuesday night, 5k around Alloway, but tuesday is my uni day so can’t make it. Next year my day changes though!.

    Do you love running? Really? Are you sure? ‘Cos only 8% of runners actually love running. Most of us just tolerate it.
    https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/news/a31014592/strava-why-we-run-survey/

    mossimus
    Member

    Context is important, as are realistic paces.
    I use “race pace” in the context of the distance you’re aiming at. So if you want to do a 4 hour marathon then I would be doing all my running at a minimum of 9 minute mile as that’s roughly the pace I need to run to hut the goal.
    What I don’t see the point of, using the above example, is doing my long runs at 10 minute miles.

    So you would run your long runs at target marathon pace? Everyone is different but if I tried to do this I would end up injured.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    Another mildly embarrassing personal question…

    Runner’s nip and how to prevent it?

    Got it for the first time last week doing 10kmv in the rain with a synthetic base layer.

    Will chamois cream do the trick?

    Tight, properly tight baselayers. I’ve ran for 9 hours in them, cheap ones I got from races as well, no worries.

    A sunny 10k in my club vest will see my nipples feeling like I’ve taken a belt sander to them.

    Spin
    Member

    Runner’s nip and how to prevent it?

    Wee bit of zinc oxide tape or similar.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    I’ll try a tighter base tomorrow eve, ta. Should be nice and soggy out again.

    Hairy tits and tape are not good either! 🤣

    So, ankle ligaments.

    Morning after Falkirk ultra, 3 weeks ago, my right ankle was swollen – outside only, just below ankle bone – I never went over on it or anything, no one off occasion that may have caused it, but the course was exceptionally muddy, probably just cumulative effect of constant unstable foot placement.

    Anyway, it’s still feels a bit odd, still swollen, but fine to run on, absolutely no pain while running at all, just feels a tad sore when sitting at desk at work is all.

    Keep running?.

    I’ll book an appointment with local sports physio, but in meantime, I appreciate thoughts.

    Premier Icon bob_summers
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    I’d be riding the bike for a few days with that I think. My physio bollocked me yesterday for waiting three weeks before going to her with my ankle sprain btw, I’d assumed it was too swollen to do anything with but rest but she said the electric magic wand thing would have worked wonders the day after.
    Anyway, I’m cleared to start jogging on the beach, off out now. Bit nervous…

    Edit, just reread it was 3 weeks ago. Few days on the bike wouldn’t make much difference then, crack on. Don’t they say any pain over about a 5 is stop immediately?

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