– the board surely must see the parallels to Ferguson’s second season (which was much, much worse overall in league terms), and stick by the new manager.

Football back in them days was a completely different thing, commercially, finacially, publically etc…

You simply don’t get the time like that now.

It’s not beyond feasible that Utd won’t even be in Europe… can you imagine that !

The parallels are that sticking by a manager in dire straits yielded the most successful era for a football club in the modern history of the English game (probably including the great Liverpool era).

So why didn’t he have any squad succession planning in place? Where are the fruits of his labours with the youth and player development system ? At one point about 20 years ago, they were queue ing up to get into the first team.

Where is any team in Englands ?

Arsenal have a few, Liverpool have a few, Chelsea no, City no, Everton have a couple … Simple fact is, for whatever reason, the country is not bringing the talent at the same rate they used to.

As for the players he left here, well, they’re hardly terrible and it’s not like any of them retired at the end of the season, so Moyes still has the same team that Ferguson left. Apart from losing Vidic, Giggs and Ferdinand at the end of the season, he’ll still have the squad but with Mata and Fellaini…

The team are not performing as they used to… it’s either the managers fault or the teams… simple as that.

The parallels are that sticking by a manager in dire straits yielded the most successful era for a football club in the modern history of the English game (probably including the great Liverpool era).

Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean that sticking with a particular manager is any guarantee of success.

I know Man U fans often live in different countries but sometimes they sound like they are on a different planet. 6th is not miles away.

@mikesmith, I’m certainly not a Man U fan and I meant miles behind in terms of points/likelihood of qualifying

Jam, we got you mate… they are miles away, simple as that… they’re miles off the pace.

@slackline, I don’t think it was Fergies job to have a succession plan in place for the team. In football it’s new manager new players generally. Also don’t underestimate the impact of the Glaziers taking so much money out of the club.

I wonder if any of the football aficionados here can estimate the impact of finishing 6th or 7th is on revenue, no CL and less PL prize money £35m, £50m, £75m ?

How about Steve Mclaren

Steve Mclaren is doing a fine job at Derby at the minute! Taken then from continuous mid-table mediocrity to promotion contenders.

Apparently with people who should know about these things steve McLaren is one of the most respected coaches/managers out there for his football knowledge,but he will always be tainted by the media driven wally in the brolly thing,just like the media are driving the moyes things,why don’t man u fans just realise they are a club in transition who won a very average bpl last year and maybe they wont win anything for a year or two,just suck it up ya big winging girls.

United fan here

The squad’s been in decline for two or three seasons, how we won the league last year defies belief. We’re a poor side now, no question and Moyes is just presiding over its disintegration. Any manager would need at least two seasons to get them back in top four shape and it won’t be cheap. Question is do the Glazers have the stomach for it? Having milked us for all we’re worth I doubt it. Utd will be a mediocre team for the foreseeable unless someone who wants to relaunch them as a global brand gets hold of the board room.

There are too many inadaquate players in the Utd dressing room. This is the problem, they may have played up for Fergie in 12-13 but this season they have been found wanting. I really hope that Moyes is given the time to do what he wants there but he was handed a turd rolled in glitter IMO.

@mikesmith, I’m certainly not a Man U fan and I meant miles behind in terms of points/likelihood of qualifying

Yep they are off the pace but being in the top 6 sides in England is not miles off. It shows really that Man U fans along with Liverpool fans recently have an expectation of being winners because of the name rather than achievement.

I suppose at least both sides had a record of achievement. If any fans have ever had unrealistic expectations of divinely pronounced success, for me, that would be Geordies. Though, that seems to have diminished in recent seasons.

Yep they are off the pace but being in the top 6 sides in England is not miles off. It shows really that Man U fans along with Liverpool fans recently have an expectation of being winners because of the name rather than achievement.

United are imo going to finish somewhere around 20-25 points off the eventual winners and their own avg points tally (83) since the PL was formed.

No team has ever won the league and fallen so far behind the subsequent winners since the PL was formed. There’s a real possibility that they’ll be as close to relegation as champs lge football.

I think only the most deluded of idiots would suggest that their team should be winning every year but that’s miles off.

Ferguson was not a great manager, purely by the fact that he left with no succession planning in place, at a stroke, it makes all his previous years of hard work and success somewhat tainted.

Perhaps you’d like to list the qualities and achievements required to reach your definition of ‘great’ then?

I think we need to see where we finish before we conduct the post-mortem. Its not over yet. We’re 15 points off the top. We might well be a lot less by the time its all over. Of course, we might not. But lets see where we are then. To put things in perspective, Liverpool finished 28 points behind us last season, and they now look like a completely different team. Thats a good manager building a decent squad over a couple of seasons. And doing it really well. A long term project

There are no quick fixes at United. I think everyone knew that. Its daft to think there are. The squad needs rebuilding. Moyes has built a great squad at Everton which Martinez is benefitting from now. He needs the chance, like Brendan Rodgers has at Liverpool, to do it over a few seasons.

No team has ever won the league and fallen so far behind the subsequent winners since the PL was formed. There’s a real possibility that they’ll be as close to relegation as champs lge football.

We won’t know that actual position for another couple of months but I suspect your marker to beat is Blackburn Rovers. Winners in 94/95 with 89 points and 7th one season later with 61 points.

I know Man U fans often live in different countries but sometimes they sound like they are on a different planet. 6th is not miles away.

Look at the points totals – yes it is miles away…

We won’t know that actual position for another couple of months but I suspect your marker to beat is Blackburn Rovers. Winners in 94/95 with 89 points and 7th one season later with 61 points.

And if they could keep following Blackburn’s lead, that’d be grand thanks. 😀

Seriously though, I’d forgotten quite how badly they’d done after winning it. So…16 points from remaining 11 games. They have a chance y’know.

Binners, I subsequently retracted my rather harsh comment on his abilities, I was endeavouring, albeit not as well as I could have, to comment on the reverence to which he is held.

As for listing the qualities and achievements for greatness, that probably deserves a thread of its own! 🙂

I seem to recall we’ve gone on a bit of a run at the end of a season, to make up a few points, in the past. Hmmmmmmmm….

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXpUdBlRZe8[/video]

😆

It’ll be interesting to see how we respond after the debacle the other night. In years past, the last thing you’d want to be doing is playing united after they’d just had a kicking in Europe. Lest we forget, we had a good few of those under Fergie too

No team has ever won the league and fallen so far behind the subsequent winners since the PL was formed. There’s a real possibility that they’ll be as close to relegation as champs lge football.

Yep agree with you all the way..
94/95 Blackburn Rovers Won
95/96 Blackburn 7th 21 Points behind
Currently Man U 6th 15points down, never let the facts get in the way…

Yep agree with you all the way..
94/95 Blackburn Rovers Won
95/96 Blackburn 7th 21 Points behind
Currently Man U 6th 15points down, never let the facts get in the way…

Yep, but “fading almost as badly as Blackburn did” isn’t much of a recommendation, is it!

No but claiming it the worst ever is a bit of imagination something most Man U fans have plenty of. It’s normal in sport not to dominate for ever. I would use rangers/celtic as an example but rangers have been the exception and proved the point.

If ever there was a time to accept that to win well you have to know how to lose well was apt it was now.

Currently Man U 6th 15points down, never let the facts get in the way…

Erm… you are aware there are still 11 games left to play? Including 2 of the biggest of the season, where you can forget the form-book, as pretty much anything can happen. Liverpool at home, and the Manchester derby. And both those are still proper 6 pointers

binners realistically at worst you could equal Rovers slide, if both Everton and the Toon overtook you then it would be a miracle. All I’m pointing out is that Premier league history expands beyond Manchester Salford and that those who expect Man u to be top 4 because they are Man u should look at history.

Even Rangers and Celtic haven’t always dominated. Remember the ‘new firm’? Aberdeen and Dundee United doing well while Rangers and Celtic struggled by their own high standards. It will be a long time before Rangers are back at the position where they were 5 years ago.

As for Man U, it was obvious last season that the squad needed serious investment to keep challenging for the title, that fact Fergie won the thing is a testament to how good a manager he was. I’m a little surprised at how badly the squad is doing this year but how much of that is due to Moyles and how much is due to the players I don’t know.

Personally I’d give him at least until this Christmas next year. Give him some funds and some time to properly rebuild and see what he can do. I suspect most managers would struggle in his situation.

Mike – I agree with you. I don’t think we’ve any divine right. I remember a good few years ago listening to my City mates confidently uttering the immortal lines “we’re too big a club to go down”. Well that went well.

It’ll be a miracle if we finish top 4. But then, with the squad we had, I don’t think anyone (least of all me) was expecting us to not just win the Premiership last year, but do it with an 11 point cushion. 😯 That was a bloody miracle too! All I’m saying is its not over til the fat lady sings.

I’m perversely rather enjoying this season, generally, as even at this stage you’d have to be brave or stupid to call who the top 4 are going to be come the end. And there’s some cracking football being played

I just wish some of it was by us! 😉

lets face it every other fan in the premier league is pretty much loving seeing man u dominance finally end. Me included and its been good to see so many other teams given a chance this year, more like a proper competition.

I dont think they are a million miles away from 4th place but doubt they’ll get there this year. It’ll be an interesting soap opera to see if they manage to restructure this summer. the players arent bad players but they’ve had it too good too long and take it for granted, now they are being asked to man up and summarily failing.

Their run-in

West Brom away
Liverpool home
West Ham away
City home
Aston Villa home
Newcastle away
Hull home
Everton away
Norwich home
Sunderland home
Southampton away

It’s a reasonable run-in to the season, particularly in May, and looking at Liverpool and Spurs’ run-ins, probably better. Spurs are in indifferent form themselves at the moment.

There is still the opportunity for them to put a bit of a run together. Even as a City fan, I’m hoping they do, to add a bit more interest to one of the best seasons for a while.

They need to have one or two big wins, and looking at the OT Liverpool game, that will be the one that sets the tone. Win that, they’re off and running. Or perhaps they will have one of those nights for the Olympiakos return.

lets face it every other fan in the premier league is pretty much loving seeing man u dominance finally end.

Let’s face it, dynasties are not good for sport in general. Of course they are if you’re a fan of the incumbent dynasty, but they’re a bit crap for everyone else.

(one of the reasons I like NFL so much)

It is amusing that the NFL is socialist/fair in nature in the most right wing country in the world!
Certainly means that you get a more random spread of results and wins

lets face it every other fan in the premier league is pretty much loving seeing man u dominance finally end.

I’m just wondering, if this continues, and City keep on going like they are, then one day we might not be the most hated club in Manchester? 😉

It is amusing that the NFL is socialist/fair in nature

any sport using the work franchise is out of the fairness league

It is amusing that the NFL is socialist/fair in nature in the most right wing country in the world!
Certainly means that you get a more random spread of results and wins

😀 It’s bizarre isn’t it?!

I’m about to start reading this book, supposed to be very good:

I’m just wondering, if this continues, and City keep on going like they are, then one day we might not be the most hated club in Manchester?

It depends how long you pursue the entitlement thing for

If we adopted NFL models here, Newcastle might actually win something some day.

It depends how long you pursue the entitlement thing for

Depends how long everyone else hangs on to the bitter resentment thing, I suppose 😀

yep and it would be a sad day to win due to a lottery not merit rich owners

Predicting the final table positions?

Ive always noticed that as the season goes into the second third, goal difference is a very good indicator of how the final standings will pan out.

Nothing scientific, thats just how the universe works 😉

EDIT – quick check on the current PL indicates:
Man City 42
Liverpool 35
Chelski 28
Arse-nal 25
Man U 12
Everton 10
Tottingham 3

What odds would one get for that at the mo do you suppose?

You heard it here if not first, then second or third, or maybe more. 🙂

yep and it would be a sad day to win due to a lottery not rich owners

Rich owners? Well sort of. They’re rich because they’ve taken the club to the cleaners, saddled us with nearly a billion quids worth of their debts, while paying themselves a fortune, and left us technically bankrupt. Which is exactly why we are where we are!

Yip, they’ve certainly been a blessing those rich owners of ours. You ABU, haterz really do need to take your blinkers off, and get over yourselves a bit 😆