The reality of Gore-Tex?

It’s not without flaws, but it’s not ‘a scam’, at least in the sense that I understand the word

Yeah, this is my view of it. The material doesn’t let water through, and it’s breathable, no scam there. The problem is that doesn’t necessarily translate to you staying dry while riding or walking around for a few hours in a jacket made from it. And that’s with factory DWR still on it.

 Luckily it’s summer so I don’t need a waterproof jacket.

No, it’s barely rained at all so far… 😉

I have an email from RAB that states that gore-tex is waterproof even if the surface wets out and the DWR coating is only to keep the material breathable (stop the wetting out).  Do we think that’s not actually true?

I have an email from RAB that states that gore-tex is waterproof even if the surface wets out and the DWR coating is only to keep the material breathable (stop the wetting out).  Do we think that’s not actually true?

I think it’s true, but in practice it will probably feel like it’s actually not true.

Rab are correct.  The membrane keeps water out .  The DWR helps it breathe by stopping the outer layer from becoming oaked

I’ve used Pertex, Goretex and Event. They are all several magnitudes better than the PU G&H Cagjac I had in the 70s.

The Rab email is correct BUT if the outer fabric is wetted out then your perspiration will condense on the inside and get cooled by the evaporative effect of the wet outer and/or the rain itself being cold so it can be rather difficult to tell the difference between that and the fabric leaking slightly.

I’ve used various Gore-Tex and non Gore-Tex jackets over the years. They have all been sweaty to some degree when working hard, although some were much better than others (Vaude Sky Fly was one of the better ones). However, Shakedry was a genuine game changer in my experience. The best waterproofing I have experienced, but also the best breathability. I have worn a Shakedry jacket all day in heavy rain and still had comfortably dry underlayers when I took it off at the end of the ride. Nothing else I have worn has performed as well.

What hasn’t (yet) been said is that Paramo stuff is better than GoreTex.

Paramo is just plain weird. ‘The only thing that keeps me dry’ to some and absolutely useless to others. I’ve come round to the opinion that it’s down to what it’s being used for and your interpretation of what ‘waterproof’ and ‘dry’ actually mean.

Paramo, too heavy and too warm.

I think  bikeradar did a podcast talking to three industry experts about this very subject. Really excellent podcast I’d recommend to anyone who is going to buy new weatherproof kit.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bikeradar-podcast/id1461106709?i=1000644146441

Nature can do it – why can’t I have a jacket that beads as well and then is left in the sunshine to regrow/regenerate it’s coating again?

You can Rusty, but the slugs will get it instead

People who think goretex is rubbish don’t remember what we had before.

Drifting back to goretex – I once heard/read that the original breathable membranes were made by pouring a thin film of polyurethane that contained small solid particles (don’t know what material). Once cured the PU sheet was then gently stretched a known amount which opened up a small pore where one of the solid particles was embedded. This PU layer was then laminated to the outer fabric. Don’t know if this is still the case?

Nature can do it – why can’t I have a jacket that beads as well and then is left in the sunshine to regrow/regenerate it’s coating again?

Because you’d have to throw it away after six months when it stopped working. Wait a minute…..

 have an email from RAB that states that gore-tex is waterproof even if the surface wets out and the DWR coating is only to keep the material breathable (stop the wetting out)

Yep, I generally just plod about in my almost 30-year-old Gore Tex jacket, so I don’t get too sweaty – and it’s totally waterproof.

Must only have bothered re-proofing it once or twice, last time was more than 10 years ago.

Drifting back to goretex – I once heard/read that the original breathable membranes were made by pouring a thin film of polyurethane that contained small solid particles (don’t know what material). Once cured the PU sheet was then gently stretched a known amount which opened up a small pore where one of the solid particles was embedded. This PU layer was then laminated to the outer fabric. Don’t know if this is still the case?

Not quite. Gore-Tex originally – and still mostly – uses an ePTFE membrane, basically the same stuff as Teflon. It’s very thin, stretchy white filmy stuff which needs to be protected, hence the sandwich construction where the membrane is laminated between a liner and a shell fabric.

Gore is secretive – like the SAS in that people know it exists and some of what it does, but the details are murky… – so exact production stuff may or may not involve stretching the membrane, however the actual pores are apparently produced by a chemical process using PFCs, which is why the original membrane is being phased out.

So, originally Gore-Tex was just the membrane and added face and liner fabrics – unless it’s two-layer, in which case there’s a separate liner to protect the exposed membrane from abrasion, however, with use contamination with body oils, sun cream, unspecified gunk, caused a process called reverse osmosis, which led to water being sucked in from the outside of the fabric…

… so to prevent this from happening, Gore added a very thin smear of PU to the inside – I think – of the membrane, which changes the way it works slightly. On one level it’s slightly less breathable, but the PU is hydrophylic, so it transmits moisture away from the skin/liner fabric and outwards. Crucially it also protects the ePTFE from contamination and reverse osmosis. Windstopper, as I understand it, is basically the original membrane, but without the PU, so it’s a little more breathable/has better moisture vapour transmission, but is less durably waterproof.

The ePFTE is now being phased out and replaced with ePE, which ime works pretty much the same, at least for standard, walking-orientated Gore-Tex, no Pro, Active available yet afaik.

A lot of alternative breathable fabrics these days use an engineered PU membrane, which can be precisely manipulated to balance vapour transfer and waterproofing – the more ‘breathable’ stuff is, the less the ultimate hydrostatic head tends to be, though in practice, at least when new, this often doesn’t matter, above a certain point it’s arguably ‘just a number’.

Sorry for all the gobbledy gook. ShakeDry, fwiw, puts the membrane, along with some PU protection I think, directly on the outside, so the face can’t get sodden and impede breathability, hence it works really, however its production uses PFCs. so it’s been canned, some still out there though. Columbia’s OutDry uses a similar rationale, but is nothing like as breathable ime, but has similar benefits in terms of resisting wetting out.

Paramo is weird stuff. Technically it’s not waterproof in the sense of resisting water under pressure – hence if you sit on it, the fabric will leak under compression – basically it’s a water resistant, windproof, DWR-treated shell with a furry-ish liner that work together to stop water reaching inner layers. It is quiet, easily repairable, and made by a company with a long-standing commitment to sustainability in a Colombian factory based around a collective for ex-sex workers if that matters to you. It’s too warm for me unless it’s sub zero out, but YMMV.

The reason Gore-Tex is expensive is that it is developed in a forensically detailed way with endless testing of all the components used along with finished garments. It’s made in closely regulated factories. All this stuff costs more. The pay-off is that it tends to be very reliable and the ‘lifetime guarantee’ is a broadly positive thing. The marketing, however, is often a bit unrealistic and creates expectations that the product fails to meet, particularly if you run fast and hot.

Sorry. that was a bit epic. As per my post earlier, like most things, it’s neither hopeless or perfect despite what the internet would have you believe. If I was off to some big, very high, cold mountains, a Gore-Tex Pro shell jacket from someone like ME or Arc’teryx would be what I’d pack. Aso, somewhat fortuitously, the stuff works better at very high altitudes because the temperature humidity gradient is more favourable – very cold and very dry air – and you tend to be moving slowly because of the lowered oxygen.

For Scotland in winter, Paramo, like it or not, actually works really well for me at least.

Blah…

Nature can do it – why can’t I have a jacket that beads as well and then is left in the sunshine to regrow/regenerate it’s coating again?

What… a bit like your skin?

I’ve become a big fan of materials that aren’t quite waterproof but breath so much better. Easier to care for too ime.

This has been done to death.

Membrane jackets are brilliant for skiing but not much use if it’s warm and wet.  The difference between Gore and other brands is now mainly marketing.  I had a top end North Face Pro Shell jacket for the last decade or so that it looks like would now RRP at £600+.  This year I replaced it with a Revolution Race jacket thats £163.   I didn’t notice any difference in waterproofing or breathability.  The RR has a lot less shaping on the arms (so a lot fewer seams), but that also means a lot less taping to fail.  The fabric is tough and feels good to wear – it’s magically got some stretch in it and is ‘quiet’.

Main thing for me on both is big pit zips and vents – you’re always going to exceed the breathability if it gets warm.

My bike waterproof is an old Endura PTFE – still works well enough (and I’ve got a ‘good’ one the same as the mtb one for when it wears out).  Reproof with nikwax.  run front and rear mudguards so it gets a lot less dirty than most peoples jackets and lasts longer.

Ponchos are great in the tropics.

Does not need to be “Gore-Tex”. Houdini makes good PTFE-free rain jackets.

I have had this for 3 years and have not needed to redo the DWR treatment yet. I have not washed it more than a few times though – I air it out after use, and use merino layer underneath to help keep it smell-free. Pretty well breathable, has zippered armpit vents – those are great for heavy rain breathability. Packs very small, has a hood that fits over a helmet and can be adjusted so it does not come off even under heavy winds. Best rain jacket I have ever owned – and I have had several Gore-Tex numbers.

https://houdinisportswear.com/en-eu/ms-bff-jacket-246394?color=246394900

Houdin BFF Jacket, Men’s (they have a womens model as well). Manufactured in the Baltic countries.

Atmos™ (Japan), 100% polyester membrane
Weight: 113 g/sqm
Breathability; 15,000 g/m2/24h
Waterproofness: 20,000 mm H2O or higher
2-way stretch
Smooth and durable face
Soft and silent surface
DWR finish – PFAS-free

Houdini fabric factsheet pdf:

https://api.houdinisportswear.com/storage/D47192A3F55EB0E1D4ED2E5E3CCC75628E6E16E31E2EAB9E7F4D2A4B958DF20A/65d2c655bcc44b6798028b390abf03af/pdf/media/5f085521076f48e3864b6f6a0e2cb63a/S22G__Hardfacts.pdf

Will get another of these when it is time.

Because you’d have to throw it away after six months when it stopped working. Wait a minute…..

I think the new more sustainable jackets will require more care, so you’ll be throwing them away every 3 months, not every 6.

piemonster, don’t say that without trying. As I said above, my Houdini BFF jacket has been the best I have had so far, and it is one of those “new, sustainable” fabrics. It has been really good.

@badlywireddog

Thanks for the info – I used to work for a PU systems company so had heard about it but not been involved.

Not a scientist but I did get gifted a Frank Shorter full Goretex rain suit in about 1989. Had lots of Goretex, Event and almost every other breathable fabric since for running/cycling/walking. They dont breath to any significant degree. I only wear them when I absolutely have to and accept that once on I am likely to be sweaty and wet inside it and avoid taking it off unless I know I will be comfortable with wet clothes next to my skin. If I know I will be wearing one I wear a little as possible underneath, maybe just a HH Lifa top (possibly the best item of clothing ever invented, truly light, warm and breathable). Most of my activities are “fast” moving so stay warm then undress when home, in the warm.

A real marketing gimmick IMO.

Something I’ve learned ski-mountaineering is the sacrificial T-shirt. Classic advice is that a T-shirt is the last thing to wear because it gets sweaty clammy and you’ll feel chilled when you stop. Perfect if you take it off when you get to the top.. So head up the mountain working hard in conditions that require a wind/waterproof then when you get to the top, brace youself, whip everything off then put every thing back on except the T-shirt, maybe replace the T-shirt with a thin fleece. The soggy T-shirt goes in the bag, everything else is reasonable dry so you’re warm and dry.

I also take a spare T-shirt for big days .

I’ve met the people from Houdini a few times and they’re always interesting to talk to , and helpful if you want to know how to make stuff last a long time, how to wash it etc.  They’re not interested in making stuff that doesn’t last a long time.

@molgrips you say to iron it… I’ve heard this before but always been terrified of the thought of taking an iron to my £200 jacket. Any tips? I’m assuming minimum heat and a quick pass over

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on “own brand” GoreTez replacements that Rab, Mountain Equipment, etc. use?