The non aligned, independent group of MP’s with no party PROBLEM!

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  • The non aligned, independent group of MP’s with no party PROBLEM!
  • Premier Icon P-Jay
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    It’s been interesting to me to see how each of the main parties has handled this.

    The Tories are akin to ‘Well, we’re sorry we couldn’t see eye to eye, perhaps they can return in the future’.

    Labour are more like “Splitters! You should resign as MPs immediately before you gain as sort of traction so we can replace you with someone who only reads from the handbook – hey as luck would have it, we happen to have a Property Devleoping Trotskyist from Luciana’s patch amongst us, erm, no wait he’s gone again”.

    😉

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new ‘movement’ look no further… (read the whole thread btw)

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Labour are more like

    They’re probably a bit pissed off at being labelled racists and anti-semites. If you’ve spent your entire political career fighting such things and are part of a party that has spent a century doing the same then that’s not something you can simply shrug your shoulders about and agree to disagree.

    It’s been interesting to me to see how each of the main parties has handled this.

    The Tories are akin to ‘Well, we’re sorry we couldn’t see eye to eye, perhaps they can return in the future’.

    Labour are more like “Splitters!

    This.

    Premier Icon ransos
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    They’re probably a bit pissed off at being labelled racists and anti-semites.

    Quite. Whatever you think of Corbyn’s leadership, he was organising against racists before I was born.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    (read the whole thread btw)

    A list of policies supported by Labour MPs before Corbyn became leader? I’ll be interested in what they say in 2019.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Oh, and if you still think that those complaining about the antisemitism they faced as Labour members and MPs are making it up, or that it should be excused… I suggest listening to the deputy leader of the party, rather than the noise machines on Social Media. He’s nailed it perfectly.

    nerd
    Member

    Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?
    Next you’ll be telling us that Owen Jones is a sage and wise man!

    kerley
    Member

    Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?

    No, but it shouldn’t be a surprise whenever we see a manifesto from this new party that it is on the conservative side of things (looking at who is in the party)

    It will be a Cameron/Blair type thing.

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?

    I guess it depends on whether you’re open to new ideas or stuck in the past and it’s deadend politics which have given us things like climate change, billionaire oligarchs, Donald Trump and brexit.

    Premier Icon brant
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    Chris Leslie was in my class at primary school.

    I remember him making a very tall tower out of the wooden mathematical counting blocks.

    A girl knocked it over.

    I can’t remember what happened next.

    It will be a Cameron/Blair type thing.

    So it will win five elections back to back. (For a loose-ish definition of ‘win’ in the case of the former.)

    (FWIW I doubt this ‘thing’ will ever become a real party.)

    Premier Icon ransos
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    Oh, and if you still think that those complaining about the antisemitism they faced as Labour members and MPs are making it up

    Are the 200 people who signed the letter to the Guardian making it up?

    I’m quite prepared to believe that there is anti-semitism within the Labour party. Is it worse than the population in general? I don’t know. Is it being dealt with effectively? Probably not. Is it being misused by those who wish to conflate it with legitimate criticism of Israel? Probably.

    Premier Icon binners
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    Anyway… Are we going to have a sweep for who’s going to jump next?

    I’ve not had a look what the bookies are giving as odds yet, but i think I’ll stick a few quid on a few people later.

    So I’m going for either Nikky Morgan or Dominic Grieve from the Tories, and from the Labour party I’m going for pretty much anyone, bar John McDonnell and Dianne Abbott, but just because it’d be really funny; Tom Watson 😀

    Who do you reckon is worth sticking a few quid on then?

    DrJ
    Member

    Chris Leslie was in my class at primary school.

    I remember him making a very tall tower out of the wooden mathematical counting blocks.

    A girl knocked it over.

    I can’t remember what happened next.

    At a guess, he cried.

    Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?

    I read his piece on school strikes and apart from being a giddy attempt to get down with the kids it made absolutely no sense at all.

    Who do you reckon is worth sticking a few quid on then?

    Ken Clarke. Just for teh lolz

    mrmoofo
    Member

    Has Tony Blair joined them yet?

    nerd
    Member

    I guess it depends on whether you’re open to new ideas or stuck in the past and it’s deadend politics which have given us things like climate change, billionaire oligarchs, Donald Trump and brexit.

    Hahahaha. It’s not one or the other, Trump or Monbiot, y’know.

    Premier Icon rone
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    Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new ‘movement’ look no further… (read the whole thread btw)

    No one seems to be interested in anything other than Brexit and keeping antisemitism rolling in the headlines at the behest of everything else.

    We will need a plan after Brexit! No one dare talk about that.

    Premier Icon dazh
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    It’s not one or the other, Trump or Monbiot, y’know.

    As if Monbiot is the only one pointing out the obvious. I’d like to hear though why you think the current system is doing such a marvellous job, seeing as you appear to know it all.

    nerd
    Member

    No, I don’t think the present system is doing well at all. You’ve extrapolated wildly from what I wrote.

    However, Monbiot believes that technology does not have a place in combating climate change, probably because it would hand even more power to “corporations”. The (technological) solution to climate change is more likely to come from Amazon or Google than from either government or grass roots movements as 1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.

    Premier Icon edhornby
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    This BBC article has the breakdown of the party numbers in a handy graph
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47313366
    there are 7 independent MPs in addition to the new IndyGroup of 11 so as HtS pointed out earlier with Ivan Lewis as a recent splitter, these should be the first priority for hoovering into the group but the big question is whether they are remainers.

    I agree with ChrisL and perchy, Ken Clarke would be a great scalp to have – but would he risk the party he’s been wedded to all his political life? his exit could be the start of the end…

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    There’s nothing here that anyone from any party wouldn’t or couldn’t support.

    Sounds like a very effective ‘manifesto’ then, does it not? Why would you advertise policies that you think everyone would hate?

    mariner
    Member

    The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
    The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.

    Premier Icon dazh
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    1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.

    A superb contradiction of your own argument there. Even if that wasn’t the case, what evidence is there that either google or amazon, or any other big corporation for that matter are interested in solving climate change? I hate to break it to you, but the likes of Google and Amazon are the problem, not the solution.

    Sounds like a very effective ‘manifesto’ then, does it not?

    Depends how you measure ‘effective’. If it’s pulling the wool over people’s eyes then yes, I suspect it will do the job. If it’s solving the intractable and self-inflicted problems that we face as a civilisation, then I suspect it’ll be as effective as those that came before it.

    Premier Icon ransos
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    The (technological) solution to climate change is more likely to come from Amazon or Google than from either government or grass roots movements as 1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.

    A 19th century economist called William Jevons observed that as the efficiency with which a resource is used rises, paradoxically, the consumption of that resource rises because of rising demand.

    For a more modern version, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazzoom%E2%80%93Brookes_postulate

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
    The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.

    So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then? That’s a good sign that someone somewhere is worried.

    Depends how you measure ‘effective’. If it’s pulling the wool over people’s eyes then yes, I suspect it will do the job. If it’s solving the intractable and self-inflicted problems that we face as a civilisation, then I suspect it’ll be as effective as those that came before it.

    Maybe “attractive” would be a better word? I’m not quite sure why you immediately conclude that they’re trying to deceive anyone, neither why you expect that an opening statement has to be about the end game.

    Premier Icon P-Jay
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    Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new ‘movement’ look no further… (read the whole thread btw)

    GeorgeMonbiot
    @GeorgeMonbiot
    Against the renationalisation of public utilities
    Against a 50p top rate of income tax
    Against abolishing tuition fees
    The #IndependentGroup looks like Conservatism minus Brexithttps://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/02/chris-leslie-interview-labour-have-massively-underestimated-new-centrist-party …

    It’s an interesting article and gives an incite into the mind of an idealist and a centrist.

    How many questions and answers were exchanged, who really knows? But George Eaton is trying to discover the reasons why they left and how Chris Leslies’ ideas differ from Labour under Corbyn, after all, that’s kind of the whole point.

    Leslie is fairly balanced, the sorts of things he talks about, Omnipresent Government controlling everything, spending balanced against taxation – okay it’s way more New Labour than Momentum Labour, but wouldn’t have seemed out of place under Blair, Brown or Miliband. Equally he’s damming of the Tories Polices around Walfare and Housing.

    Monibot either ignores most of it, or just can’t see past his own ideology and spews out – Anti-Taxation, Anti-No Tuition Fees and Anti-Nationalisation. He’s the no better than Fox News, he’s just on the other side of the fence.

    The worst part is what whilst it might galvanise Momentum and like-minded people, it just makes him look like a Marxist loon to everyone else, pushing the message further Left.

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments

    They are, in many cases, beholden to the stock market. Which makes the electorate look like long term planners.

    So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then?

    Yup. It started when they held their press conference and went all out. Not sure why others shouldnt return the favour?

    I’m not quite sure why you immediately conclude that they’re trying to deceive anyone,

    Well a cursory look at their voting records would indicate their dedication to some of the causes is less than ideal. That they have got a manifesto which doesnt annoy anyone to some degree is a tad odd.

    The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
    The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.

    I preferred Chuka Vision.

    To me…to EU

    Premier Icon Sandwich
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    So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then? That’s a good sign that someone somewhere is worried.

    Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone’s been a very naughty boy/girl and it’s going to get expensive for them.

    Premier Icon binners
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    Has someone made off with the cassettes from Jezza’s ZX81?!!!

    Premier Icon Sandwich
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    I had him down as a Commadore 64 type of chap!

    Premier Icon P-Jay
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    I preferred Chuka Vision.

    To me…to EU

    Brilliant.

    Brilliant.

    Not mine. Some wag on Twitter.

    MSP
    Member

    Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone’s been a very naughty boy/girl and it’s going to get expensive for them.

    seems fair enough, the leave campaign got labours members database, this just evens it up.

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    Leslie is fairly balanced, the sorts of things he talks about, Omnipresent Government controlling everything

    Balanced? In what world is jumping from renationalising certain industries to his “how many tractors are sold, or what trains should leave Euston at what particular time of day” balanced?
    Why on earth is he going on about tractors? Shows a certain ideological purity that he immediately leaps to that conclusion.
    Also as for trains at a certain time of day. He might want to catch up with Grayling about the government interaction on that.
    Same with his comment about tuition fees. An interesting response would have been to comment on how much is already effectively spent by the government but just punted a few years down the line.

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Subscriber

    Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone’s been a very naughty boy/girl and it’s going to get expensive for them.

    Nah,

    If there’s been a data breach it will be Labour who get fined by the ICO, not whoever was able to access it – it’s the data controllers responsibility to secure data.

    Although, on the balance of probability I suspect Labour knew the 7 would resign, or if they didn’t if someone on their IT wasn’t cutting their access as they were at the podium, then they’re mad. Anyway, I really doubt that if the MPs who resigned waited until after they resigned to study whatever data they wanted.

    If they were granted access to the data whilst members of Labour, then they’ve done nothing wrong.

    I would suspect Labour Leadership are in a bit of a mild panic situation, they know other MPs will possibly leave shortly and staff within the Party could be equally as displeased with them – after-all we’re only 3 years into the current Leadership which was preceded by 20+ years of the Blair/Brown/Miliband era, how many salary staff within Labour are ‘New Labour’ types? Anyway – I would guess until the storm passes they will want to keep Membership data to trusted people within the inner circle, maybe because they fear the Indie will want to contact the older, less Momentum inclined members, or maybe just to avoid a bad headline around falling membership figures.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    At some point they’re going to have to find some things they’re actually for, rather than just knowing what they’re against. Some of them have pretty closely aligned beliefs but not all, even before it went cross-party. I suspect they lack the glue to actually work together. Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry have some pretty big disagreements never mind the cross party stuff

    P-Jay

    Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron are all centrists

    Cameron did a pretty good job of pretending to be a centrist, but no he was not.

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