The NHS…………..again. (P155 boiling content)

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  • The NHS…………..again. (P155 boiling content)
  • slackalice
    Member

    It should be pointed out that this is only a problem for those over the border.

    Care, compassion and empathy…. 😕

    Please Scotroutes, please tell me you work with inanimate objects. 😀 😉

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Subscriber

    5thElefant – Member
    I fundamentally disagree with that, cost of living payrises should be a right otherwise you take a pay cut each year. Incremental rises each year in addition for just doing your job on the other hand…

    Who’s going to pay for it? Everyone else has taken a pay cut, you want us to pay more tax as well? Leave. If you’re really worth more you’ll find a better paid job.
    POSTED 7 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

    Thatchers children have entered the building.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Xxx xxxxx wrote:

    Please Scotroutes, please tell me you work with inanimate objects.

    Please slackalice, tell me you know what irony is.

    At least THM got it 🙂

    bol
    Member

    Removing our increments and pay rises will save jobs
    we can all do maths cutting your pay in half will save jobs.
    as i mentioned it is about priorities and the public sector is not amongst theirs [ except for new and novel ways to cut costs that harm the workers and the poor and pave the way for rescue from the wonderful private sector that finds them]

    Yes, I agree.

    Cutting payrises will save jobs, and not paying useless managers who shouldnt ever be in a job would save even more money, but by some strange quirk of fate, theyre the ones who decide the budgets for wages and theyre the ones most able to protect their jobs along with the hangers on below them.

    Yes, there are some poor managers, but about the same proportion as in the private sector in my experience. Senior NHS managers are in an invidious position where they take the wrap for making the cuts that are imposed on them by the government.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Scotroutes, not only got it but thought it was joke of the day!!

    So we can all do the maths….well if you are paid by the government then the scary maths is to ask what level of fiscal surplus, yes surplus not lower deficit, is required to stabilise, yes stabilise not reduce, our level of public debt.

    PFS (required) = current debt ratio x (long term interest rate – long term growth rate)

    You can do the sensitivity yourself. See what needs to be done with debt of @90%, LTIR of @2.75% and growth of @1%. Then look what happens if markets take a dislike to what you are doing and long term bonds rise to say 3%. Ummm….

    ….and this is the context for wage discussions. Not pretty.

    project
    Member

    It will be quite intresting in how scotland plc will be funding all this buying of votes for its own government, but then this lot down here have no idea about how to spend money sensibly, only how to cut essential services for those who cant afford to pay for private treatment.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Don’t get too excited bruneep. Remember that Andy Burnham – Labour Shadow Secretary of State for Health – wants consistent policies across all of the UK. Still, it’s nice of him to let us know what some of the consequences of a No vote next September will be, eh?

    CaptJon
    Member

    Here’s a crazy idea, increase the NHS budget so it can pay people more. Of course that would mean cutting other things, but i’d rather health workers were paid property and felt valued than pay for a replacement for trident.

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Subscriber

    Don’t get too excited bruneep

    I’m not, the SNP have offered a “deal” to the fire service with their dispute. I think its interesting that they are clearly sticking 2 fingers up to Westminster at present. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the vote next year tho.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    (At least in the short term) Scotland’s budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country. So the same pressure faced now will be even worse. So these pledges look hollow IMO…

    So not good news either way (but be careful what you wish for!)….

    b r
    Member

    I’ve recently started work in the NHS, after 30 years of working in the private sector.

    Eye opener, is all I will say…

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Scotland’s budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country. So the same pressure faced now will be even worse. So these pledges look hollow IMO…

    So you reckon that Scotland will vote for independence then ?

    Since you apparently think “these pledges look hollow”.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    No, because the majoirty are too sensible. For clarity “will” should have said “would” to avoid misunderstanding 😉

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    teamhurtmore – Member

    (At least in the short term) Scotland’s budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country.

    That depends on a long ton of factors- how the national debt would be distributed being a big one. But according to GERS, Scotland’s current deficit is proportionally less than the UK deficit.

    restless
    Member

    I work for the NHS on a zero hours contract and don’t get any increments, sick pay or other benefits of a permanent contract, yet I have to work every weekend and often at very short notice ( same day or one day ) .

    I do the same job as my colleagues, yet feel taken for granted and not valued by management as all of my work is in their favour, not mine.

    project
    Member

    But Restless thats a good bit of management, getting someone to work for zero hours, no pension etc, so litle cost only the cost of your wage, and so sadly people obey and more companies jump on the wagon,because they know people want a job or more importantly to earn money.

    glupton1976
    Member

    Whereas there are some of us who get to pick and choose from various short contracts every week and get paid more than the regular permanent staff. (Not that I’ve bothered to take any NHS work yet…)

    restless
    Member

    Yes they get their cake and eat it.
    The infuriating thing is, I was told I would have the opportunity to apply for a substantive position when they became available, but this hasn’t happened.
    New staff come in on a substantive contract and myself and the others on zero hours have been overlooked again and again.

    glupton1976
    Member

    Apply to work at a different place then.

    restless
    Member

    If life were that simple I would !!

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    We are a third world nation: we just haven’t noticed yet

    So that’s why there are so many minorities about.

    toxicsoks
    Member

    http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/mp-claims-3p-for-100-metre-car-trip-1

    …… !!! ……….! (I have no words……) 😯 👿

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    ‘No NHS pay freeze’ in Scotland

    Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won’t do something that’s controversial.

    grum
    Member

    Call me a tinfoil-hat-wearing lefty if you like but aren’t the Tories deliberately stretching the NHS to breaking point to try and justify their claims that it’s ‘not working’ and needs to be privatised?

    More of this please: 😕

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/worlds-largest-private-healthcare-company-hca-plans-expansion-into-nhs-8659439.html

    HCA is already at the centre of a massive row after being accused of overcharging the NHS by millions of pounds in a damning report released last week.

    It owns the Gamma Knife Centre at Barts hospital, which has been given the new contract alongside Bupa’s private Cromwell hospital.

    HCA has a chequered history in the US and has been fined more than $1billion for mis-selling healthcare.

    Mr Morris said: “Given this ­company’s record in America why are they being given lucrative contracts by our NHS?

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-hospital-corporation-america-donates-2246513

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won’t do something that’s controversial.

    Who would you associate that statement to Drac ? It undermines the case for independence by emphasising that independence isn’t necessarily needed to protect Scotland from the excesses of this right-wing Tory LibDem cabal.

    And there’s nothing immoral about pointing out that you won’t be doing something which you consider to be unjustified and immoral.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Drac – Moderator
    > ‘No NHS pay freeze’ in Scotland
    Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won’t do something that’s controversial.

    You do understand the the Department of Health has no say in the running of the NHS in Scotland and that their latest suggestion only ever applied to employees in England?

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    You’re a

    tinfoil-hat-wearing lefty

    1. The Conservatives aren’t that organised.
    2. The Conservatives aren’t that strategic.
    3. The population would string them up if they tried to properly privatise the NHS wholesale.
    4. I doubt you could privatise the NHS, it’s taken this long to privatise something relatively simple like the Royal Mail.

    No they’re happy enough to score cheap political points as are their Labour colleagues rather than resolve the underlying issues in the NHS. Free health care at the point of delivery in it’s current form isn’t sustainable without more investment (to cope with the ever increasing number of patients and treatable diseases) and massive improvements in the delivery and management of the service.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    You do understand the the Department of Health has no say in the running of the NHS in Scotland and that their latest suggestion only ever applied to employees in England?

    Yes thanks but my comment still applies.

    Who would you associate that statement to Drac ?

    Because they do it every time they can.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    The Conservatives aren’t that organised.
    The Conservatives aren’t that strategic.

    Do you actually believe that ?

    I find it rather bizarre to dismiss public school educated born to rule Tories as clueless amateurs.

    If there’s one skill that the Tories and their wealthy allies have it’s their marketing skills.

    Yes they are organised and strategic. That’s how they’ve managed to stay in government most of the time since universal suffrage was first established.

    Peyote
    Member

    I think I’d vote for a party/politician who could be honest about the state of the NHS and the other social systems in this country (education, social services etc.).

    Basically, all they would need to do was say “Yep, they are in a sorry state, here’s a Cost/Benefit analysis of how to sort them out, here’s how much additional tax we need to raise and it’s going to be 5% on income tax.”

    That’d get my vote. But no party or politician seems to want to bite the bullet.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    You could have a hypothecated tax take for the NHS and call it something like National Insurance. I’d vote for that. Problem is, I’d then expect/want a similar level of accountancy for other taxes.

    War Tax – err, I can I just opt out of that one please.
    MPs Expenses Tax – get tae ****!

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    I’m back! I survived the RCGP conference. I am pleased to report I had a warm and cordial welcome and even BA contributed to a memorable day by getting me to Leeds and back, cheaper than the train, quicker and on time.

    I took part in the media question time. It turned out to be a hoot! The robust exchanges between Lady GaGa and Prof Sir Simon Wesley, (A John McEnroe look-alike) the panel chairman, woke the audience up and dissolved them into fits of laughter when they realised he and Lady G are husband and wife. Heaven knows what breakfast time is like in their household!

    I had a spat with a very polite bloke from the BMA with a sesquipedalian question. Apparently I’d upset him by saying the thread-bare, self-focussed, hopelessly led, vacuous, confused, split-loyalty BMA had let the reforms in by the back door. I thought everyone thought that; he didn’t. Never mind. He got over it!

    The previous day Conference had been treated to a visit from LaLite. He told his audience he wanted to be the most GP-loving Secretary of State in living memory; it was his mission to end the box ticking bureaucracy of QoF.

    Now, GPs are a bright lot but like any other audience they are easily distracted. When they hear; ‘GP-loving, memory, mission, and bureaucracy’, they don’t hear; ‘end and QoF’. At that point Conference should, as one, have stood up and shouted ‘Woooha! Wait a minute… end QoF and replace it with what?’

    When a pickpocket bumps into you at the train station and apologises profusely for his momentary clumsiness and enquires, earnestly, as to your wellbeing, you don’t notice his deft hand lifting your wallet. LaLite is the Apollo Robbins of healthcare. He is not after bureaucracy or loving you, he is after your wallet!

    The whole idea of removing QoF is to remove costs. LaLite knows about the Circle of Doom; the fact that after 2015 all funding bets are off. The NHS is facing a black-hole of something like £30bn, maybe more. No one is going to suggest putting taxes up so costs must be cut.

    I know, practice costs are going up and GP incomes are levelling off but LaLite will want more. GPs; expect a pay cut. GPs need an urgent alternative to the conflicted, confused and convoluted BMA to represent them without the clutter of all the Docs in other parts of the NHS chiming in with their two-pennyworth.

    It’s not just GP’s cash LaLite has his eyes on. The NHS pay-packet is up for grabs. Seventy percent of costs are wages and salaries. Annual increments, linked to length of service and satisfactory performance, add £700m pa to salary costs. They are set to become part of the history of healthcare. The DH say; ‘can’t pay, won’t pay’. Strange how NHS Scotland says it can and will?

    LaLite wants the Pay Review Bodies (which are due to make their recommendations in February or March) to defer the planned 1% pay rise until he has negotiated seven-day working with Unions. The Chancellor’s weighed-in; “…. and confirmed (HMG) want NHS pay to have stronger links to performance, quality and productivity”.

    Explain to me how a nurse on a ward can influence the quality of care she delivers if the numpties in the Board Room cut staff, reduce hours and screw-up patient to nurse ratios? Remember, the biggest pay-winners last year were senior managers who got a whopping average rise of 16.4%. The real pay cost inflation has resulted from The Carbuncle’s upgrade of posts, post-reform.

    What to do? All Trusts have the authority to set local pay and conditions. Unions don’t like it as they lose their raison d’etre. Nevertheless, it can be done. In the early 90’s I sat down with staff, great managers and some very far sighted Union bosses and introduced the first local-pay and conditions package in the NHS.

    We created the headroom for increments by working together to cut costs. No one knows more about efficiency than the front-line. You just have to listen.

    The clodhopping NHS Employers sound, to me, like they’re the back-door of the DH and cut no ice. Trust Boards will be buffeted by cack-handed national negotiations motivated by party and politics in the run-up to the election. Right now there is a brief opportunity to take a serious look at how to use pay as a lever to bring people together, not a stick to keep them apart.

    Boards, take note; it’s time to look after your most valuable asset; your people. Circle the wagons

    From NHS Managers: http://www.nhsmanagers.net/newsletter/
    (there are lots of hyperlinks in the original that obviously haven’t copied across)

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    here’s how much additional tax

    So you’ve already decided that addition tax is required…..why ?

    9. In times of austerity, can we afford the costs of the NHS and other public services?

    We believe that it is both more affordable and more efficient to deliver key public services, especially health and social care, through a non-market system. Privatisation and commercialisation wastes vast amounts of public money by diverting into shareholder profits and fees and payments to lawyers, accountants and administrators. It will increase costs and transfer risk from the wealthiest in society to the poorest and most vulnerable.

    We also note the growing anger around the failure to address the banking and credit crisis, and the public money that has been lavished on supporting the financial sector to the detriment of public services. We believe there is strong case that resources and money could be found to fund and sustain an excellent health service for all, if we had an economy that was not structured to serve the demands and greed of the top 1% wealthy.

    National Health Action Party FAQs

    In the 1980s the Tories very successfully convinced a politically significant minority that Britain couldn’t afford to pay them a decent wage. “We’ve been paying ourselves too much” they claimed, by “ourselves” they meant you of course.

    Today they appear to be having some success in convincing a significant number of people that Britain can’t afford to have decent social provisions.

    Peyote
    Member

    So you’ve already decided that addition tax is required…..why ?

    No specific reason, just a general assumption that it’s falling to bits, it’s workers aren’t happy and seem to be underpaid particularly those at the coal face. I thought it a reasonable assumption to make. I’m happy to be educated otherwise though.

    Very interesting link though, will have a trawl through later on. I have similar concerns about state education and social care too.

    noteeth
    Member

    The Conservatives aren’t that organised.
    The Conservatives aren’t that strategic

    Lansley spent most of his time in opposition planning the blitzkrieg that would become the ConDem reforms, utterly muddleheaded as they are.

    Meanwhile, the private sector (Virgin, Serco, Circle & the rest) are being handed more & more NHS services…. of course, they (& their profits) are dependent upon NHS acute capacity, infrastructure and workforce training – even as the NHS gets slagged off!

    It’s an utter pish-take.

    dragon
    Member

    just a general assumption that it’s falling to bits, it’s workers aren’t happy and seem to be underpaid particularly those at the coal face

    Remember that NHS workers pay income tax also, so increase income tax and they’d likely be worse off.

    Also who are you talking about when you say underpaid NHS staff? As some possibly are (paramedics?) and some definitely aren’t i.e. Doctors.

    Peyote
    Member

    Remember that NHS workers pay income tax also, so increase income tax and they’d likely be worse off.

    Depends how much you increase their pay by!

    I don’t know who in the NHS is underpaid and who isn’t I’m afraid. As a general rule of thumb I’d assume nurses, cleaners, paramedics and the ilk are underpaid, and consultants, managers etc. aren’t. I’m afraid I don’t know enough about the management and pay scales of the NHS. It’s a huge organisation and one I’ve never worked in, and to be honest my post was an off-the-cuff one based on the priniciples that those at the bottom (employees and service users) are getting shafted for the sake of the great God capitalism and it upsets and infuriates me that this is happening.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    I’m a Paramedic Team Leader, I earn a pretty good wage I never say otherwise. I work as a Paramedic, I have 15 staff to look after, a station and 2 vehicles. On top of that of course comes all the H&S Regs to monitor and follow, seems I’m classed as responsible for Fire Safety too, I will soon be given a budget to stick to rigidly for consumables.

    Ok I could maybe get more in the Private sector for a similar role or as close as you can get as there isn’t really one. However I wouldn’t get the pension I have even though it’s not the one I signed up for 24 years ago it’s still pretty good. I won’t get the security offered by the NHS as people will always take ill our work load is increasing so plenty of customers.

    We’ve ‘agreed’ to take lower pay rises the last few years and we did with the 1% then for a right Hunt to come along and say sorry no isn’t right. Even more so when they gladly took 11% payrise which is far more than I’ve had in the last 6-8 years put together.

    I’ll say it again the pay increments are a contractual agreement, they are not automatic they’re performance based although this hasn’t always been followed.

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